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Home > Forums > Overlays and Resurfacing Forum > Can you install an overlay directly over a painted floor?

Can you install an overlay directly over a painted floor?
victor.pachade	12-30-2009 20:34:42
Member Posts: 39 Joined: 10-22-2009	This is in continuation of the topic ‘Acid Staining over Gypcrete – A Case Study’ posted in the Acid Staining Forum. The rest rooms were painted with some kind of concrete paint and we had to resurface the painted floors with 1/8” semi-self leveling, re-trowelable concrete overlay, Pentimento. As you can see in the pics below, we installed this overlay directly over the painted surface with minimal surface preparation. Every time I tell someone that you can go over a painted surface without removing the paint, I get a look of utter disbelief from them. We recommend running a 17” Clarke® Floor Machine with black pad and/or 3M 60 grit sanding screen. The rule of thumb is to run this machine for at least 1hour every 1000ft2. This will ensure that the paint if it is not bonded well to the concrete will come off. For those who would like to go by standard tests, it is like conducting a Standard Test for Tensile Strength of Concrete Repair and Overlay Materials by Direct Tension (ASTM C1583/C1583M). By running the floor machine the bonding of paint with concrete is being tested in tension as well as shear. We would like to get a nice scratch pattern on the painted surface. After the floor was prepared as described above, we followed a standard process of installing the overlay, staining and sealing. If you need specifics, please contact me by email. Here I just wanted to highlight the fact that it is possible to install a concrete overlay/micro-topping over a painted (or sealed) surface without completely removing it. I am sure many will agree that this will save lot of time and money. Wish you all a Happy and Prosperous New Year! Cheers, Victor Pachadé

dcsinc	12-30-2009 21:03:06
Member Posts: 62 Joined: 08-10-2008	(It's LIKE) ASTM C1583/C1583M.....? Rubbing a black pad over "some kind of paint" isn't anything like those testings. I hope at least you are do this with a dry pad to create some kind of friction and not like the photo you posted swimming in the lubricant on the the painted floor. I'm sure your product sticks well to paint. You are a paid favorite and I'm just one of the black sheep of the group so I can't really say what I think, which is fine with me. I just felt your statement above is way out of line. Would you mind taking me off your mailing list also, pretty please? I know how to contact you and I read enough of your advertizing on this board. You have a good year too. gene

itsreallyconc	12-31-2009 03:27:49
Member Posts: 342 Joined: 09-29-2009	that looks suspiciously like the men's room near the 37th street entrance in central park & they're hired some hanger-out wanna-be george michael to hold some sort of ground mounted vibratory device against his pelvis,,, don't ask why - i don't know ! far's installing anything over paint, etc, of course 1 does so at his own risk OR a large-print disclaimer,,, just a wag but asking any mfg'er for backup after doing so would only cause a hangup on that end. best [the original] more-obama-yo-mama-stimulus-funding-at-work ? yic-yac

Mike Murray	12-31-2009 07:28:42
Member Posts: 251 Joined: --	If that works for your material thats great ,I however would have some concerns on the wording any kind of paint. That would seem to open a door to avoid proper surface prep. I guess a question I would have is how could you conduct ASTM F 1839 or ASTM F 2170 granted 1839 will most likely need revised completly. It would also seem to go against ICRI guideline 03732 for preparation of floors to recieve polymer overlays are you getting a CSP of 2-3? I would hate to see us go back to the days of my products stick to anything, in todays market that seems a big risk. If it works for your material great but I would hope you would state that this is only for our products, Mike Murray

vibra	12-31-2009 10:08:04
Member Posts: 24 Joined: --	A micro topping sprayed over gyp. and an overlay over paint???You are leaving the rest of us in the dust Victor!!! Kudos!!!!!!

SweetCreteFloors	12-31-2009 12:15:46
My Gallery Member Posts: 568 Joined: 01-11-2008	ding ding ding

victor.pachade	12-31-2009 15:34:10
Member Posts: 39 Joined: 10-22-2009	Gene, John, Mike and Brad Thank you for your comments. Mike, you bring very good points. Thank you for reminding me to mention here that, ‘going over paint (or sealers, ask us which ones…)’ is true only for our products. Of course, I cannot speak for other products. To understand the logic behind this let us go back to the theories of adhesion that you may already know. The four theories of adhesion are – a. Mechanical adhesion (interlocking) b. Diffusion – solubility of one material into another c. Adsorption – adhesive molecules are attracted to each other one their surfaces d. Covalent bonding-adhesive molecules bond by sharing electrons The strength of the adhesion between two materials depends on which of the above phenomenon occur between the two materials. Please note no one theory explains adhesion completely. I presume the CSP recommendations of ICRI or SSPC take into account only Mechanical Adhesion (Interlocking) happening between the two adherents. For the other three phenomenons to come into play the two adherents must wet each other perfectly well. This brings us to a very important property of adhesive – wetability (or wetting of a liquid). Out of the five most popular polymers used in our industry, (namely – acrylics, epoxies, polyurethanes, polyesters and polyaspartics), acrylics exhibit the best wetting properties. The concrete resurfacing products we used in this project are acrylic based. Therefore, we were confident of adhesion with the paint. We wanted to ensure that the paint on the floor is bonded well to the substrate. If were going to use an epoxy or polyurethane coating in these rest rooms, we would have completely removed the paint (or sealer). Mike, we did not conduct ASTM F2170 test because the property owner did not mention moisture issues in the floor. For future problems due to moisture, the contractor was protected through contractual terms and conditions. Nevertheless, we highly recommend conducting moisture emission tests and ascertain that the test results are within the stipulated limits. You all have a very happy new year!

itsreallyconc	01-01-2010 04:15:09
Member Posts: 342 Joined: 09-29-2009	QUOTE victor.pachade, 2009-12-31 15:34:10 Gene, John, Mike and Brad Thank you for your comments. Mike, you bring very good points. Thank you for reminding me to mention here that, ‘going over paint (or sealers, ask us which ones…)’ is true only for our products. Of course, I cannot speak for other products. To understand the logic behind this let us go back to the theories of adhesion that you may already know. The four theories of adhesion are – a. Mechanical adhesion (interlocking) b. Diffusion – solubility of one material into another c. Adsorption – adhesive molecules are attracted to each other one their surfaces d. Covalent bonding-adhesive molecules bond by sharing electrons The strength of the adhesion between two materials depends on which of the above phenomenon occur between the two materials. Please note no one theory explains adhesion completely. I presume the CSP recommendations of ICRI or SSPC take into account only Mechanical Adhesion (Interlocking) happening between the two adherents. For the other three phenomenons to come into play the two adherents must wet each other perfectly well. This brings us to a very important property of adhesive – wetability (or wetting of a liquid). Out of the five most popular polymers used in our industry, (namely – acrylics, epoxies, polyurethanes, polyesters and polyaspartics), acrylics exhibit the best wetting properties. The concrete resurfacing products we used in this project are acrylic based. Therefore, we were confident of adhesion with the paint. We wanted to ensure that the paint on the floor is bonded well to the substrate. If were going to use an epoxy or polyurethane coating in these rest rooms, we would have completely removed the paint (or sealer). Mike, we did not conduct ASTM F2170 test because the property owner did not mention moisture issues in the floor. For future problems due to moisture, the contractor was protected through contractual terms and conditions. Nevertheless, we highly recommend conducting moisture emission tests and ascertain that the test results are within the stipulated limits. You all have a very happy new year! that's a lot of words to explain the previously post'd ' far's installing anything over paint, etc, of course 1 does so at his own risk OR a large-print disclaimer,,, ' ' asking any mfg'er for backup after doing so would only cause a hangup,,, ' to my knowledge, duraamen's pentimento's the 1st w/product that performs like that,,, not saying you're wrong, victor, but i'd have to be shown you're proven right,,, call me in 10yrs ? best [the original] a-happy-prosperous-new-year-to-all yic-yac

Dr"J"	01-01-2010 11:47:03
My Gallery Member Posts: 330 Joined: --	Victor and Gary ARE the manufacturers.

MC	01-01-2010 17:15:49
My Gallery Member Posts: 1656 Joined: 05-20-2007	Ive overlayed over so much crap with various materials (incuding pentimento) with no problems. Most all quality materials out there will stick to just about anything, but it all comes down to how well that paint, coating..whatever, is bonded to the floor. We have overlayed over others bad stain jobs that have had acrylics and urethane sealers. As long as the sealer/coating isnt failing and you rough it up some, a good overlay product will bond. I used to worry about getting a call back of a bond failure but have never recieved one. (the only bond failure Ive had was on clean concrete..go figure). I will say though that grinding or shot blasting the surface is always the absolute BEST idea prior to overlaying, if you can budget it in which in todays market its almost impossible

GarageandBeyond	02-19-2010 22:45:54
My Gallery Member Posts: 121 Joined: 06-27-2008	When it doubt, grind it out. I opt to grind everything.

Alexwright	02-21-2010 17:31:22
Member Posts: 76 Joined: 03-24-2009	Good thing that you knew exactly what type of paint and its make-up was on that floor but, like others have stated, I think it is a broad statement to make without putting all of the disclaimers and warnings and so on attached to it. Sure you can apply overlays to painted areas but, how long are they going to last? Plus you can do alot of things and add your disclaimers at the end to protect you. As for me I have a conscience and if I know that something is "iffy" I let the customer know what it will cost to properly do the floor and if they want"iffy" and state it, I let them know up front that I recommend against but will do it as long as I am not held responsible in any way and will state it in the contract in clear writing. If they agree to that then and only then will I do the job otherwise they have to pay the price to do it right or find someone else. Maybe that explains why alot of other people I know in the business are more busy than I am but in the end we all have to answer to God and for me I'd rather have a clean conscience and be slow. God will see that and honor and bless accordingly.

Lindy A.	02-22-2010 18:34:39
Member Posts: 3372 Joined: 05-11-2009	In all fairness, Victor was making reference to applying his Pentimento over a acrylic coated surface that was first sanded with a 60 grit screen for approximately 1 hour per 1000 sq.ft (removing compromised/loose material that would impede bonding or be apt to loose its bond to original substrate, as well as assure that any remaining was abraded as deemed necessary) ...then rinsed, scrubbed, allowed to dry. Next first coat of acrylic was applied and left for approximately 10 hours; to be followed by another coat of acrylic to wet it out again, once this primer coat turns clear and is dry to the touch Victor's Pentimento polymer modified overlay is applied; 24 hours later it can be stained. This was all referenced in Duraamen Digest article (accessible on his website) titled "How to Acid Stain a Painted or Sealed Floor." I have read a great many of his technical data/specification sheets for various Duraamen materials; in them he clearly states never to apply epoxies, urethanes, industrial flooring materials/ystems or any other product/material directly over paints/coatings/sealers (guess you could say I come from "the old school standards)...instead he states to sand/grind, shot blast, etc first to completely remove them ... with exception being his Pentimento system. We all are paint phobics to a certain degree ...I'm certainly a self-professed one that has always strived to eliminate them in every way/shape/form; along with all the problematic situations and issues they have the potential to bring about when it comes to the types of materials, protective coatings, and resurfacing systems I have experience in applying; but, far be it from me to question the physical properties and characteristics Victor has made his case for here on the Forum. Any Manufacturer' that believes in the performance of his material, based on actual successful testing/evaluation results that evidence success rate, to the point of putting it in writing on a public forum that will be read by 1000's would be committing Manufacturer' suicide if the did not have proof that his claims were firmly rooted in fact (in other words might as well be painting a permanent bulls-eye on his forehead) ... Victor is too smart of a man, with extensive industry knowledge, to do so, therefore, IMO it may well be time to put any arrows of doubt back in their quiver. I'm sure we all agree that that the secret to success is removing all foreign matter and/or that which is not firmly locked into/onto concrete substrates, taking into account and abiding by proven surface preparation standards, performing necessary vapor tests, etc. ...doing anything less could compromise our reputation for quality, longevity, and performance and bring about potential for failure; but, it seems as if Victor may have found the key to doing so, ONLY when it comes to his proprietary Pentimento system. None of us wants to relive the horror stories of the past, or try to recover from results due to lack of proper/necessary surface preparation and taking into account all mitigating factors; therefore, we will stick and adhere to what we know and has proven successful; but, a Manufacturer' (such as Victor) who can substantiate and prove his products performance claims deserves to be heard and duly considered; so, those that have a need for his Pentimento system should consider giving it a try. I'm sure that he will promptly answer any lingering questions/concerns you may have if/when you give me a call, you'll never know until you do! Lindy A.

vibra	02-23-2010 09:08:31
Member Posts: 24 Joined: --	This is part of an email I get on a regular bases from an overlay company. I realize these guy don't advertise here so I edited there name. They have always promoted there products to go over just about anything and there literature say they have been in business 20 years...... I hate to say it but our products just wont work this way. Once again being left in the dust.... There email said..... Our products are unique. You could part of a group of professionals who have been trained to apply our incredible overlay systems. In the multi-billion dollar industry of concrete restoration and beautification, your customer will not find any other product that comes close to the functionality and beauty of XXXXXXXX exclusive products. You have a competitive edge on all other contractors and dealers who have not been trained in our products. • Flexibility. Our exclusive overlay cement formulas are really like flexible stone. They withstand normal surface movement where other cement and coatings fail because they are rigid and brittle. • Adverse Surfaces. Unlike traditional cement, our products easily apply to adverse surfaces that are wooden, styrofoam, painted, glazed, sealed, Formica,linoleum, glue,etc. Even a cracked concrete foundation is not a problem for the flexible overlay. This is truly a unique feature. • Durability. xxxxxxx products are not new – they have a proven track record of durability and success. They have been rigorously tested by chemists in laboratories and have been applied in construction projects for over twenty years. Whether in freezing temperatures or sweltering heat, the overlay systems have stood the test of time. The products look beautiful after years of exposure to nature’s elements. • Satisfied Customers. You will find xxxxx overlay systems installed in many mega-stores, apartment complexes, condominiums, houses, schools and other enterprises. Our large customers, like several Wal-Marts, are happy. Our small customers, like individual homeowners, are happy. We know that they are happy because they tell us so and because they come back for more. • Affordable. Our products are priced reasonably so that your customers will be able to afford applications both small and large. • Remarkable realism • Easy to do • Great profit margins • Looks great over adverse surfaces e.g.: painted, sealed, linoleum, brick, block, wood, dry wall, cracked existing concrete, etc. • Lightweight wall material can be applied at thickness of up to 2” allowing beautiful depth and texture to surfaces. • New construction or renovation • Use in featheredge to deep fill Little prep work saves time and money

itsreallyconc	02-24-2010 17:50:00
Member Posts: 342 Joined: 09-29-2009	at least they had a good copywriter,,, amazing how the english language gets butcher'd from the looks of what we get in the mail,,, 'fore anyone sez ' HEY, jerk,,, you............. ',,, just think in artillery terms - ' fire for effect ! ' ;-) best [the original] any-other-dec-conc-mfgrs-biting-the-dust ? yic-yac

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