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Liquid Release versus Powder
K	01-15-2008 07:44:49
Member Posts: 1 Joined: 01-15-2008	I'm having a new driveway poured with about 23 yards of concrete. I saw a slate look driveway that I liked and want to emulate it. My contractor uses a wet colored powder release process rather than dry. I've seen his work, which is wet release and the darker color of the release seems to pool in the deep areas of the slate pattern. Is this a characteristic of wet release or does powder do the same thing? I don't care for the pooling effect, but don't know if the powder does the same thing. I can't seem to find any suppliers that have samples of the two processes for me to know the difference. Does anyone have a picture of both results or can you explain it?

morgispop	01-15-2008 20:10:20
Member Posts: 75 Joined: --	I must admit I have not hear of a wet "powder" release, at least not intentionally. From what you described, he must be tinting his liquid release with a powder release. On second thought, you win, that would be a wet powder release. Using traditional dry release will not have as much pooling overall and I personally find proper use of powder release to give a bit more natural look. Powder release colors the concrete a lightly all over and heavier where there is the most pressure from the stamps, forcing it into the surface. This is mainly the grout lines and the more extreme texture of the stamp. Liquid release simply pools in the lowest areas, showing more spottting at times. He also has more control over final results more with powder by being able to remove more or less color while cleaning it off. Trying this with liquid is more of a headache. Just inquire if he uses powder as well, he may have a valid reason for not. Good Luck.

suntacsys	01-16-2008 07:42:16
Member Posts: 1132 Joined: --	think indy-gene was working w/wet release,,, hopefully he'll post his experiences,,, as i recall, he like'd it more'n dry but that could be loss of some memory on my part, too :-) best [the original} shoot-what's-'is-name,,, oh, yeah, yic-yac

dcs inc	01-16-2008 11:11:14
Member Posts: 190 Joined: --	Hi K, there has been some debate on which application is better..... or looks better. The toss n' cough method of applying a dry powder release, (apply 80 pounds, stamp and then wash off 79 pounds) is the more accepted method by installers. I don't like it because of the mess and clean up involved. On a windy day you'll be out there cleaning siding, autos parked near by.... The Clear liquid release, or bubble gum release as it's called in the field because of it smell, is another method that is gaining popularity because it's safer and cleaner method of applying a secondary "antique" color to the stamped impression. You basically mix a little colorant to the clear release, spray on and then stamp. The debate stems from which is the better method. As for longevity, I feel they are equal. As for the looks, it really depends on the applicator. Installers are mixing incorrectly, added way too much of the colorant into the clear release, causing undesirable pooling or way too much secondary color. The thing I like about this method is the time savings. A lot of the releases sold, be it powder or liquid must be washed off because they become a barrier to proper adhesion of the sealer. The liquid release I use doesn't create a bonding problem with the sealer. If used correctly, you can skip the wash, wash, wash of the oily (animal by-product) residue that these releases contain. In fact, I am getting away from using any powdered release and just using liquid integral colorants for my color base for the liquid release. gene ec-Indy

Steve V	01-17-2008 05:56:47
Member Posts: 274 Joined: --	Gene, do you have close-up photos of jobs you've done using this process? I know a guy can find many photos of stamping done with powder, but like he says, it may be difficult for him to see the other. I would be interested to see it myself. As Gene notes, powder release is messy. However, that's what we use and like it very well. Some photos of (good) jobs done using colored liquid release would be helpful for everyone on this forum. Below are 2 photos of stamping with powdered release agent. Steve V

art	01-17-2008 08:17:14
Member Posts: 579 Joined: --	I used both systems extensively on my installer days and I can tell you from my own experience that powder release does indeed give a better look. Now, you can make a liquid release/color stamp job look pretty good but if you do compare both side by side you will see a difference. We learned to like and appreciate the liquid release because of the mess reduction especially on windy days like Gene says but there is a little bit more time and work involved. If I had to choose one or the other I would probably go with liquid and practice with adding color and stains to the color scheme to enhance the finished look. Art

MC	01-17-2008 08:46:35
Member Posts: 723 Joined: 05-20-2007	Steve here is a close up of ajob we did using clolored liquid release. Medium grey integral/ dark grey liquid:

MC	01-17-2008 08:52:49
Member Posts: 723 Joined: 05-20-2007	One more not so close:

MC	01-17-2008 09:01:32
Member Posts: 723 Joined: 05-20-2007	Powder release gives better detail in the texture than liquid does. But liquid is very easy to manage. You can see the difference in your close up of that ashlar slate compared to my liquid release picture that the powder shows more detail, but the liquid still adds a nice overall antiqing color which still looks very natural. As Gene said, if used wrong it can look awful. If you end up trying it out, start out with roughly 2oz of powder per 1 gal of liquid release. Ive found anything over 4oz per gallon is too much. By the way on this job I stamped with clear liquid and came back after it was all poured and colored it with the colored liquid...I feel I have more control coloring the whole thing at once. Sometimes when stamping in the colored liquid it can look a little blotchy

dcs inc	01-17-2008 09:03:38
Member Posts: 190 Joined: --	I have to figure how to post pics...... a little different than I'm used to. gene

Steve V	01-17-2008 09:34:37
Member Posts: 274 Joined: --	MC and Art, thanks for your input. Especially the photos. Gene, after you write a reply click on the "add images" button below. Then click on "browse" and it will take you to your files. If you double click on one of your pictures, it will attach. Steve V

dcs inc	01-17-2008 10:47:10
Member Posts: 190 Joined: --	Ok, I'll give it a try. Here are a couple I chopped to see the color a little better. I was hopeing to get a couple of patterned pics but could only find these on this computer. My shop computer has my main photo album pics.

bonvec	01-17-2008 16:55:17
Member Posts: 15 Joined: --	I've used both and there is no comparison the powder does a more realistic job but if I'm in a spot in which the dust and dirt of powder and clean up is to difficult I go with colored bubble gum. I have to admit the clean up is a pain and reduces my profit a bit but photos of my powder jobs help when bidding new work.

morgispop	01-18-2008 17:41:05
Member Posts: 75 Joined: --	AS you can see, it comes down to preference. I did not say it so well in my first reply. Best analogy, it is like a nice rib rack on the grill. Liquid release is sort of like a nice wet marinade. Good even tangy flavor. Now, powder release is akin to a great dry rub, more work to do but the intense charred flavor is just that much more inviting. Time to eat.

customc	02-08-2008 06:12:07
Member Posts: 74 Joined: 02-02-2008	i also tried colored liquid release.when i get an overlay job i always use it because you cannot use a powder .so i have been told it is too hard to wash powder off overlays because the powder sticks to it and won't wash off.i get alot of color when i use the liquid.but i don't like the circles it leaves when i pick up the stamp.but if you light spray the circles with more colored release they will go away and leave a nice look.it is more time consuming though.i use powder here because it gets very hot outside and the concrete sets very fast so the power can be thrown out much kwiker than spraying as you go because of evaporation .it is nice to stay clean and smell like a candy store though.

MC	02-08-2008 08:57:24
Member Posts: 723 Joined: 05-20-2007	Customc. Whoever told you that you cannot use powder with a stamped overlay is wrong. I have used it many times (outside jobs only for obvious reasons). Using liquid with an overlay material tends to pull the material a little and leaves grainy fuzzy spots. Powder gives a complete release of the stamp from the material and doesnt "pull" the material and leave those "fuzzy" spots. Also for a little tip: You said that when stamping with colored liquid when you pull the stamps the color will be blotchly and have color circles. Keep a paint roller on a handle with you at all times when stamping with colored liquid release. After you pull each stamp, lightly roll out the color. It will blend it out nicely and it also helps smooth out those fuzzy spots that I was talking about. If you dont use alot of pressure, it wont effect your texture or pattern lines. I see stamped o.l. jobs all the time that look blotchy and very fake looking because the color wasnt done right. Rolling it out is an easy and fast way to blending it.

customc	02-09-2008 06:31:38
Member Posts: 74 Joined: 02-02-2008	tell you the truth i don't remember who told me not to use powder on overlays.it was years ago i guess i assumed he was right.i rarely do overlays i don't like them. i stick to stamped concrete for the last 20 years.the roller idea is something i would like to try though.just another example of don't always believe what you hear.

MC	02-09-2008 10:13:29
Member Posts: 723 Joined: 05-20-2007	Traditional stamped concrete is better than stamped overlays. I agree with you 100%. That roller idea works with regular concrete too if you use liquid release.

morgispop	02-09-2008 11:31:05
Member Posts: 75 Joined: --	Speaking of rollers, a quick tip if you did not know, is that dry paint rollers work great for applying powder release along borders or defined areas, preventing any unwanted blowing onto other areas. Makes it pretty easy to use different color releases with some patterns. Jut coat the roller in powder, shake off excess and roll it on.

MC	02-09-2008 19:13:51
Member Posts: 723 Joined: 05-20-2007	Learn something new every day. I never even thought of trying that. I always would hold a piece of cardboard in the joint to block the powder from getting where I didnt want it. Ill for sure give that a try next time.

customc	02-15-2008 05:43:37
Member Posts: 74 Joined: 02-02-2008	i also use the cardboard will try the roller .i do alot of borders i usually use the same powder then wash it harder and use stains with a paintbrush with the water stains i get any color i like.

morgispop	02-16-2008 06:31:34
Member Posts: 75 Joined: --	Roller with powder release make going around curves very easy too, as opposed to the cardboard method. Less bending.

consci	04-02-2008 18:46:23
Member Posts: 63 Joined: 04-02-2008	powder vs. liquid ? I think for all of us the longevity of the appearance is very important. Powder tends to look better, i say look, not perform. Getting back to basics. What is powdered release? A bond breaker that tends to stick more to the areas with the highest pressure, this the realistic jooints and so called depth. Here is the problem, what is left after you wash the release off? there is still release on the surface. what is the crucial element of sealer bond? a clean dry surface free of contaminants. NO RELEASE=NO ACCENT=GOOD SEALER BOND. REMAINING RELEASE=BEAUTIFUL ANTIQUEING=POOR SEALER BOND=FLAKING AND DELAM

Todd S	04-03-2008 08:02:58
Member Posts: 20 Joined: --	Consi, Your thinking is incorrect. The powdered release is a bond breaker in which a pigment has been added. In the stamping process, some of this pigment is basically ground into the joints and character marks of the stamped pattern. If your clean up is thorough enough, you will remove all of the bond breaker and all of the pigment that has not been made a permanent part of the concrete color. You will not have an issue with a quality sealer if you follow that simple logic. This is the mistake many people make - not being aggressive enough with the clean up. How many hundreds of times has Steve V posted this same thing? With liquid release, the coloring is generally not as consistent as the powder and does not hold as well as powder in the joints and character marks - it's just not as "ground" in as with powder. Regardless, you can get a nice look with it, just not as sharp, in my opinion. Regards, Todd

MC	04-03-2008 18:07:36
Member Posts: 723 Joined: 05-20-2007	Talk to any quality stamped concrete contractor that has been around for more than 10 years and you will see, consi, that you are wrong. I dont think I have ever once in my 15 years of stamping concrete ever had an issue of peeling sealer due to powder release. We use it all the time and have used it since day one. It looks much better than stained stamped concrete in my opinion and doesnt cause any problems if washed off correctly. Sounds like you are trying to get too technical

consci	04-04-2008 09:47:59
Member Posts: 63 Joined: 04-02-2008	"IF WASHED PROPERLY" you are exaclty right. I appologize for getting too technical, just thought we were in a forum that was a few steps ahead of joe vanilla contractor. Just saying in my opinion, liquid release is better. If powder is broadcast over the surface, how can you see what needs to be touched up? joints, bald spots, murky areas, ect?

morgispop	04-04-2008 18:01:47
Member Posts: 75 Joined: --	Certainly no expert but definitely prefer powder release and I provides more feedback while stamping as to what the problem areas are. Just by looking at the powdered surface, I can easily see squeeze problems and missed impressions. I have to look harder when using liquid. The signs are just less apparent to me. Sealer problems. Never.

Bob@ ICS	04-22-2008 20:07:22
Member Posts: 38 Joined: --	If I am not mistaken powered release,can be made of the crystallized components that make up a liquid release. The reasoning behind it breaking the bond of a sealer would be the saturation of pigment keeping the sealants from properly bonding not the general chemistry of the release alone. For if liquid release were a bond breaker in the traditional sense it would need to be rinsed prior to sealing as well.

consci	04-23-2008 16:33:09
Member Posts: 63 Joined: 04-02-2008	liquid release is little more than mineral spirits with scent added. Mineral spirits evaporate, antiqueing powders don't

deco-art	04-29-2008 17:20:45
Member Posts: 43 Joined: 04-29-2008	I have used both liquid and powder. I prefer the clean liquid but have to say the powder gives a better look. I included one picture with powder and one with liquid, can you tell the differance?

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