| Selling Lies |
| 01-21-2008 19:37:53 |
Member
Posts: 10
Joined: 02-23-2007
|
I have been in the concrete counter business for the past 5 years and have been producing some great counters and even better architectural pieces. I am not here to legitimize my skill level at all. So....
I have come to a cross road in my business and have become sick and tired of selling a product that has so many issues when it comes to sealing and maintenance that it makes it far below par.
I find myself creating wonderful pieces sealing them and when I go to install I leave upset because I know I will be back in the near future to re seal or remove a stain, and it guts me to think I am being paid to produce a product that needs that much care.
I have tried everything out there for topical to impregnating sealers and have stuck it out with Goldenlook's aliphatic sealer for some time now. I have to say it always looks unreal when it is in the shop but when I install, the sealer at 5 days of curing is sub par, I mean it scratches with your nail, making the handling of installation imposable because you are having to come back and re seal the next day. Putting the customer out another week before they can use their tops. Stupid.
I am have followed every instruction to a tee with every sealer out there and am sick and tired to the lies and BS that these companies come up with. All your products do not work and you all should be ashamed of selling them to people, you do not know what your doing to us and our families well being!!!!
I am closing my doors on concrete and opening up a stone and quartz fab shop in it's place. At least I know I will be selling good product that has minimal issues and a great history backing it.
Until this industry figures it out, I will no longer be selling the lie that concrete is a good countertop choice.
Dustin
|
|
|
| 01-21-2008 20:37:44 |
Member
Posts: 40
Joined: 02-04-2007
|
Wow, that hurts!
|
|
|
|
| 01-21-2008 20:56:10 |
Member
Posts: 10
Joined: 02-23-2007
|
I am not trying to attack the industy, I personally know the beauty of concrete and love its divercity, however no matter how much you educate your clients the headaches are guarenteed.
Maybe I am missing something and am open for new ideas or suggestions to save this dieing horse, however I am very frusturated up to this point.
|
|
|
|
| 01-22-2008 03:29:14 |
Member
Posts: 8
Joined: 08-28-2007
|
StonLok E3 & 2K
I've been using it for 2 years now and have never had a sealer related call back. (about 300 kitchens)
I would not be making sinks without this product.
Mark
|
|
|
|
| 01-22-2008 06:59:13 |
Member
Posts: 29
Joined: 01-18-2007
|
Dustin I feel your pain, but I think that your missing the bigger picture. Your looking for perfection with an "imperfect" material. 90 percent of my clients want concrete BECAUSE of its imperfections. I had to take a step back and realize that the product is for the client and not myself.
Im am starting to use Stoneloks e3/2k system as well and after talking with many ctop builders all say that this is the sealer to eliminate callbacks and so far I agree. Their will always be "issues" with clients and your right, you have to educate the crap out of you client. But always remember, like it or not, Granite CAN and WILL stain. Most Granite is dark enough for this not to be noticed. It will also scratch like hell!! So I had to reside to the fact that if a client wants a stain and scratch free surface, concrete OR Granite is not the choice for them and its best that I dont try to sell them on it. These customers are the problem ones.
I guess all Im saying is dont give up hope because your unsatisfied with your sealers. I bet you have quite a few very happy clients as well!!
Regards
J Parris
|
|
|
|
| 01-22-2008 07:39:40 |
Member
Posts: 13
Joined: 07-01-2007
|
Dustin,
I think most of us can appreciate your position. But, and I know this is going to hurt, the real problem maybe you not the concrete. It is you that sets the expectation of your product, not the clients. We set our clients expectation from the start of the project. Now if your expectation and the one you are giving your clients, is to have very stain resistant tops....well you have been using the wrong products.
As of now there are really only a very small handful of products that have good durability for countertops. One is a topical system that has a bit of film build, but has very good protection, and the other is a chemical reactive system that has long term durability and protection...with no film build.
Now I am not here to say don't move on to stone....and you say you have tried all the sealers available....but I know 2 technolgies that are working very well for guys in the industry.
All products have their pros and cons. I do agree with you about one thing....because CC are becoming very popular there are many companies that are trying to say their sealing product works very well for CC. When in fact they don't and should not be used for CC. Actually they can be used for CC, you just have to set your clients expecation as to what the product can and can't handle.
It is up to us to do our own home work and know who is just marketing and who is actually trying to make a better product for us all to use.
If you want more info please feel free to call me
866-881-2315
|
|
|
|
| 01-22-2008 10:12:06 |
Member
Posts: 1772
Joined: --
|
Sealers are formulated to seal a surface in order to protect them against penetration of various types of foreign matter; detering a certain degree of staining, discoloration, loss of clarity, etc. (the degree of which depends on the custom formulation itself).
Polyaspartic Aliphatic Polyureas (no matter who the manufacturer) have the highest degree of wear/abrasion resistant properties as compared to many common alternatives as evidenced by independent/government approved ASTM falling sand abrasion tests (ie: the wearing/abrading of the sealer off the surface).
Wear/abrasion resistant properties of sealers (such as those of foot traffic, vehicle tires, etc.) relate to their ability to remain on the surface (performing as a sealer). You can scratch anything ... hard shell protective coatings/finishes on cars protect the paint from road residues, bird droppings, and the fading of your paint, but they don't prevent a tiny twig on a shrub or the neighborhood cat jumping on the vehicle from fine scratching of the paint (John Q. Homeowner understands this); furthermore, you can scratch glass, steel, and even concrete that has aged/increased in hardness over the years (dull concrete just does not show the scratch to the degree that a shiny surface would, again due to light refraction); again, this is an understood fact of life. When it comes to CC there is a common misconception between wear/abrasion (ie: sealer remaining on the surface) and scratching, which are two totally different things.
Also, the shiner the surface (sealer), regardless of whether it is a car, countertop, or interior floor/exterior surface, the more a person's eye will go to the scratch due to a difference in light refraction between the scratch and the rest of the surface (generally speaking the bright lighting in a room/kitchen, reflecting off a 3' high countertop which a person is closer to and looking across, is sometimes greater than that of a floor they would be looking down on. For this reason, some CC countertop contractors apply a coat of bees wax (melting the bees wax, allowing it to cool, applying over sealed countertop, then buffing) ... the bees wax mutes the shine to a degree, making any scratches less evident as compared to a high gloss surface (I'm not suggesting this, just making a statement as to what I have heard from a few others).
The degree of time it takes a sealer to reach it's full cured out physical properties will also differ due to on-site application conditions (ambiant temperature, relative humidity, ventilation, etc.) that are known only to the individual applicator (job site specific). Sealers may be dry to the touch in a few hours, but that does not mean they have obtained their full cured out properties which can take days (depending on on-site conditions and individual sealer formulations).
But in all fairness, no one is selling lies ... it is the misconceptions as the differences in wear/abrasion and scratching that are typically at the root of any misunderstandings. There is no such thing as a scratch proof surface, be it a countertop or floor ... only diamonds can make that claim to fame.
Lindy A.
|
|
|
|
| 01-22-2008 10:20:18 |
Member
Posts: 10
Joined: 02-23-2007
|
John
I know that it is not me. My expectations are set, like you said, with my clients way before I start to poor the molds. I have spoke with you in the past and purchased your sealer and densifier as well. I did numerous tests and sample using the system including call back after call back and I could not get the sealer to work to the standards you set out for your product.
I waited for 2 months on one sample and it stained just as easy with wine as it would have using a pen/sealer.
From my stand point I have done all the steps right. I educate the client and let them know all the poss/negs and leave nothing out, at all. I even go as far as staining a top to let them know what they are dealing with. Now if I still have their attention I let them choose, topical or pen/sealer/wax.
99.9% do not want the hassle of wiping up after themselves every time they are in the kitchen. So I then have to tell them, " well it also has it's drawbacks it is very easily scratched and once scratched looks like crap."
Oh but I can touch that up. No problem there, I will just keep running back and forth from every topical job and do touch ups once a month.....common.
I have yet to use the Stone Loc system yet. Now Lindy sold me on the Goldenlook and it is great looking, tough as nails, but you can put a simple dried bread crumb under a plate and slide it across the top and it scratches. Does the Stone Loc system do that as well?
I just installed a job here yesterday and had the tops on the slab cart, fully cured for 28days and sealed for 5 days of drying time. I wrapped the tops in bubble wrap to avoid scratches or dings on the drive to the site.
Now on installation I noticed that where the friggn' bubble wrap was in between the tops and the cart, the bubble wrap left a footprint of it's self on the tops. how nice! @#@$ Now this is 5 days longer cure time than suggested. and bubble wrap scratched the tops.
Can you see my frustration!
|
|
|
|
| 01-22-2008 11:31:21 |
Member
Posts: 308
Joined: --
|
Cutting granite just seems like a job to me. Concrete is about being creative.
|
|
|
|
| 01-22-2008 14:41:16 |
Member
Posts: 28
Joined: 01-27-2007
|
Dustin, I feel your pain. I experienced the same results in making concrete counters. My worst realization was when I set a drop of wine overnight on a test piece that had samples of every different type of concrete sealer that I had been experimenting with the last ten years or so. They all failed. My biggest headachs now come from trying to seal outdoor concrete counters.
I don't believe concrete counters are a failed product though. The creative opportunities with concrete are endless. All of my counters involve some creative colors, carvings and inlays that are not possible with other material. My clients are happy with them. They know they will stain here and there and end up with a character of their own. They are willing to put up with the limitations of the material.
Hang in there.
John
|
|
|
|
| 01-22-2008 18:58:49 |
Member
Posts: 86
Joined: --
|
If you are getting call backs its because you are not selling it correctly.
And if your market is so limited that a person needs to take all they can get, then concrete is not for you.
I've said it all along, under sell over perform and know your customer!!!
|
|
|
|
| 01-22-2008 20:03:07 |
Member
Posts: 10
Joined: 02-23-2007
|
Concrete is great for the creative aspect of design, however for counters that are going to be used everyday and for cooking products, Concrete is not the right choice.
It is not as easy as undersell and over perform, because the performance is always sub par, due to the lack of a sealer that offers all. You cannot tell me that you tell your clients that they are paying a higher cost for the design but the product will not last a few months of normal wear. And that you have a worn out top that is not at all the same as when it went in, oh and you have to pay me to fix it. common
You know the tops always look great on install, but don't forget they are gonna get used and abused. And after that you all have to come back and fix your product, no matter what you use. That is the problem.
On the up side Concrete is unreal for vanities and architectural products like fire places, ledge coverings, vent hoods, and other styles, but kitchen counters are not the right place for it. I am convinced!
|
|
|
|
| 01-22-2008 21:40:35 |
Member
Posts: 86
Joined: --
|
I have 2 kitchens 5yrs old that I see often (friend of my wife and sister in law) They are more than pleased with them, one has a acrylic sealer and the other has a product called stain proof. They have worne over time and look great.
E3/2k system was a God send for stain and heat performance.
Here's how I sell it: One is stain resistant one is stain proof but will scratch, you choose. If they still have a problem with that then we dont work together.
Business has never been better and customers are happy.
Not sure what else to say.
|
|
|
|
| 01-24-2008 07:00:18 |
Member
Posts: 7
Joined: 08-24-2007
|
What company sells stonlok I would like to try it.
Rich McAllister
715-612-4613
|
|
|
|
| 01-24-2008 07:43:24 |
Member
Posts: 33
Joined: 10-24-2007
|
Stonlock website
http://www.rjsconline.com/index.htm
|
|
|
|
| 01-24-2008 21:46:04 |
Member
Posts: 723
Joined: 05-20-2007
|
Dustin is right. No matter what you tell the customers in the end it doesnt matter. If their countertop stains they will be calling.
I agree that concrete is not at all as durable as other countertop material as far as staining and wearability is concerned. If you want to tell your customers the truth you have to tell them that if they want their nice new concrete countertops to actually last, thay can NEVER use them. Unless they like stains all over the place (or as concrete guys call it "natural patina" ha ha)
|
|
|
|
| 01-24-2008 21:47:10 |
Member
Posts: 723
Joined: 05-20-2007
|
Desertdog what are you trying to show in the picture?
|
|
|
|
| 01-25-2008 00:08:31 |
Member
Posts: 10
Joined: 02-23-2007
|
And there is my proof.
Justly stated we all agree that there is not a sealer out their that is perfect.
We have stated that the pen/sealers don't last and the topicals scratch and wear terribly.
So than why are their people still lining up to by this crap? If Stoneloc is still a substitute for imperfection that why buy it guys?
That is my major problem here, you have guys like Cheng and Buddy, Mr.Schuler, Goldenlook and all these companies offering you crap, and forcing you to settle with imperfect protection for your investment in your own business and jobs. And all the while these people are lining their pockets and leaving you with the final headaches!!!! They are not even held accountable for their products, because they continue to market to us that their products are perfect and when they fail they make you buy more and more to fix the job. But never do they want to fix the real issue.
The Concrete Countertop industry needs something better so we do not have these headaches. Why hasn't someone with the backing done anything yet?
My theory is that there will not be any money in it because one company could supply the entire industry without the need for these other companies selling you on marketing and lies!!!
Quit buying it and then maybe we will see some changes
|
|
|
|
| 01-25-2008 05:21:11 |
Member
Posts: 40
Joined: 02-04-2007
|
I use a water based micro emulsion acrylic sealer on all my jobs. I coat it with a few coats of penetrating sealer first, followed by 2-3 coats of the topical sealer, and then a few coats of wax. I have never had a call back and occasionally get to see them every once and a while and they still look good. I personally have concrete in my own kitchen with a (white concrete island). I have 3 kids all under the age of 9 and they eat there daily. It hasn't scratched or stained. Maybe it's the sealer, or maybe it's because I take care of them. I belive if you explain to the customer upfront that with a little maintenance and t.l.c., the tops can stay beautiful with a little care. I always leave the homeowner with a jar of wax. That might help too. I think it is just the way some people apply the sealer and how well it is maintained. I have never had a problem with it.
|
|
|
|
| 01-25-2008 07:21:24 |
Member
Posts: 13
Joined: 07-01-2007
|
Dustin,
We can all sense your frustration. I am willing to make you an offer. Send me a few samples of your concrete. 1 sqft., say alteast 2 ro 3. I will seal them, I will send one back to you. You can test it, try to scratch it...what ever you want. Then lets see who is trying to sell crap. If the samples don't hold up as expected, then continue to rant away.
We all know there isn't a perfect sealer, depending on what your personal perception of perfect is. There also isn't the perfect concrete. Personally even I would love to not even need a sealer, it would be great if you could pour concrete and not have it have the ability to stain.
I have granite in parts of my home, guess what, it has stains and scratches. I do have to do maintenace on it, once a year you should put more penetrating sealer. I should buff out the scratches.....but I don't. To me there isn't a perfect solution out there for all situations.
|
|
|
|
| 01-25-2008 16:26:36 |
Member
Posts: 75
Joined: --
|
Dustin, it seems you are missing the point of concrete counter tops. The "perfection" lies within its "imperfection". This medium gives you(your client) the option to be very creative and unique. Allowing them to truly compliment their decor, they can express their design taste and style so much more with concrete than most any natural material. You get what you pay for does not necessarily translate into durability(your "perfection"). Take custom wood floors. My mango wood floors do not resist scratching any more than the economical flooring from HD, heck probably worse. Doesn't bother me because I understand the characteristics. I try not to wear golf shoes in the house, that's all. Touting concrete as an impervious material is not the way to go. Doing so would be lying, concrete does not lie, people do. If the client must have an impervious material then be honest and let them go. They just might come back.
|
|
|
|
| 01-25-2008 20:10:17 |
Member
Posts: 10
Joined: 02-23-2007
|
Ok let me set this straight.
I fully understand that concrete is an imperfect product that is full of character and the imperfections are part of it's beauty.
I have sold many of counters on this platform. I give many a demonstration on the causes of stains, the removal of stains, the causes of scratches and the remove of scratches. I also show my potential clients the product that has had no maintenance done to it and how industrial and nice it can grow a rich patina that matures with less care. So on and so on. I have done my homework and make sure that I leave nothing out when selling my products, NO HIDDEN LIES and NO SQUEWD TRUTHS.
It is not me with the problem, I know that 100%
So if I follow through with a customer after all the jazz I just stated, what am I doing wrong? Please?
I love my job and I want this to work for all of us, but I cannot handle the call back after call back from people, complaining 2 weeks after the install that their tops look like garbage and it is my fault because of it.
|
|
|
|
| 01-25-2008 23:29:17 |
Member
Posts: 23
Joined: 08-17-2007
|
i have always heard the grass is greener on the other side.
good luck with granite dustin tell us how the grass is.
|
|
|
|
| 01-26-2008 16:33:04 |
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: --
|
Dustin, this business is not for you. Get out quick!!!! By the way I passed a truck on the road a while back from a major granite and marble fabricator around here. On the side of the truck it said 'customer service and maintenance division'.
I wonder why?
|
|
|
|
| 01-26-2008 21:55:08 |
Member
Posts: 86
Joined: --
|
Nice one.
Oh MC just showing one of my show room pc's. Its at a place called The Door Mill.
|
|
|
|
| 01-27-2008 00:16:56 |
Member
Posts: 6
Joined: --
|
Dustin, Are you doing sack mixes or are you batching your own...Your scratching problem makes me wonder on your concrete density. You said you have been at it for five years I think, and your curing sounds right on, so I think mix... Do you use any extracurricular pozzolans? They tend to shoot density outta the roof.
You keep saying concrete is an imperfect material...please stop...it is just being used in locations that make it chemically challenged,or compromised.
Desertdog nice showroom pc you actually made concrete look like wood mimicking plastic...creative..
|
|
|
|
| 01-27-2008 13:33:39 |
Member
Posts: 10
Joined: 02-23-2007
|
NO NO guys not Granite, that is over played and has it's headaches as well.
I have been down that road.
Soapstone, glass, copper and stainless, materials that cannot etch and you do not need to seal. Materials that you can 100% put the blame on the customer for their failure.
That my friends is where I will be.
|
|
|
|
| 01-27-2008 16:13:30 |
Member
Posts: 723
Joined: 05-20-2007
|
discrete, he was talking about topical sealers scratching not the concrete. If you want to talk about sack mixes..all you have to do is modify them a little for a good mix.
But I do agree that the best most controlled mixes are when you mix your own
|
|
|
|
| 01-28-2008 19:50:56 |
Member
Posts: 97
Joined: 12-05-2006
|
just to clarify to people reading this thread..my name is dustin as well and have received phone calls about switching to nat. stone and quitting conc and just wanted to say its not me that posted this......by the way I use Counter Hard/First Seal and had a few bumps but Jon S has been more than readily available and has done stain tests on multiple peoples concrete and I value him as a resource and the sealer is definitely not crap as my tops have greatly improved as far as scratching and staining goes......did not mean to hijack thread just wanted to make sure people did not confuse the Dustins.....carry on and I gotta get back to sealing!
|
|
|
|
| 03-06-2008 09:47:30 |
Member
Posts: 2
Joined: 03-06-2008
|
I AM JUST GETTING READY TO FORM SAMPLES FOR MY FIRST CONCRETE COUNTERTOP. WAS EXCITED UNTIL NOW. U ARE SCARING THE H@#$ OUT OF ME. IS IT REALLY THAT BAD? DO YOU DO OTHER DECORATIVE CONCRETE? WE DO ALL FACETS OF CONCRETE AND WE HAVE DEALT WITH THE NICEST OF PEOPLE AND THE ONES BORDERING ON PSYCHOTIC. ARE YOU MAKING A GENERALIZATION BASED ON SOME BAD EXPERIENCES? OR ARE YOU PICKING YOURSELF APART? I THINK IT IS GREAT THAT YOU CARE SO MUCH ABOUT YOUR FINISHED PRODUCT BECAUSE THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO DO NOT CARE WHAT THEY LEAVE BEHIND. THEY TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE CUSTOMER'S LACK OF KNOWLEDGE.
|
|
|
|
| 03-06-2008 17:53:44 |
Member
Posts: 86
Joined: --
|
Its not that bad.
Worse yet you could go get a job working for someone else making them rich....no thanks I'll take the few headaches with concrete and run my own life.
If you are new to concrete it might be too much, been around it 20+ yrs and nothing scares me anymore.
Good luck and if you need some input give me a call.
Jim R 480-299-0704
Urban Concrete
|
|
|
|
| 04-02-2008 21:14:21 |
Member
Posts: 63
Joined: 04-02-2008
|
I understand your fatigue. I have found that you need to talk the customer out of a concrete top. If they insist then they will love all the flaws of a countertop that grows with thier family, all the stains and scratches, all memories. I hand finished my wet bar, stained it with dark walnut, maintenence is an application of mineral oil every 3 mo. or so. High end stone is raw, what do granite guys recommend to maintain stone? Mineral oil. If the top is professionaly done it looks good no matter what. The customer needs to appreciate the craftmanship of the piece, that is the goal
|
|
|
|
