| pour-in-place countertop - looking for advice |
| 03-11-2008 09:35:13 |
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Posts: 10
Joined: 03-11-2008
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Hello all ~
I'm a DIY home owner, about to tackle a concrete counter top - basement bar, i was hoping to give you experts my game plan and see if you have any advice....
To start, the plan. (first image)
I'm making three separate surfaces, two seated "bar" areas, and one "countertop" wet sink area. The reason I'm pouring in place, is I want to pour around the existing lolly columns.
I'm framing the bases with 2 x 4's and 3/4" plywood, and making the pour stops from white melamine. The pour will be 1 3/4" thick with diamond lathe and rebar. (second image)
The materials.
I plan on using Quikrete 5000 ( http://www.quikrete.com/ProductLines/Quikrete5000ConcreteMix.asp ) with the Quikrete liquid color ( http://www.quikrete.com/ProductLines/CementColor.asp ) Black, to be precise. One container per 80 lb bag.
Once poured and floated, i plan on seeding the surface with crushed blue glass, then refloating the embed the glass.
Once it's cured i plan to grind and polish the concrete to expose the glass, then seal it up.
I made a test batch with one bag, on color container, and some glass, and am satisfied with the color of the quikrete product, but i waited to long to seed the glass (i should have done this immediately, i thought i should wait like 20 minutes) so it didn't embed properly and a fair amount dislodges when i try to grind it. (a mistake I'm glad i made on the test batch)
So, that is my planned project.
I still need to find a diamond cup wheel to grind the surface better, (im having a hard time finding one) and run some test with that on the test slab, but soon i'll feel ready to make the big pour.
Any expert advice? Any red flags in my plans?
Thank you much for your time,
Mark
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| 03-11-2008 14:57:58 |
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: 02-09-2008
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Hi Mark,
It sounds like you have already done some research and are well on your way. I think the best advice, as you have already found out, is practice, practice, practice.
Fishstone is a manufactuer of concrete countertops in Chicago as well as a national distributor of products specifically for concrete countertops.
Feel free to call me directly at 847-648-3474 with any questions or if you need help finding something (cup wheel) you can check out our website at www.concretecountertopsupply.com and download a catalog.
Tom Fischer
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| 03-12-2008 07:27:22 |
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Posts: 3
Joined: 02-25-2008
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Mark,
Here are a couple of packages that we offer that would be perfect for you. If you have any questions feel free to give us a call at 866-902-7311.
www.concretecountertopspecialties.com/showitem.cfm?itemnum=1554&catnum=0.
www.concretecountertopspecialties.com/showitem.cfm?itemnum=1561&catnum=0.
www.concretecountertopspecialties.com/showitem.cfm?itemnum=365&catnum=0.
Thanks,
Concrete Countertop Specialties
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| 03-12-2008 08:16:12 |
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Posts: 145
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It looks like you are doing your homework. Be aware of the areas that will need attention for extra reinforcing though. Where your countertops are wrapping around the end of the columns you have two entrance corners from each column. This is where cracking will most likely occur. Some diagonally placed rebar at these points will help, as will some fibre-mesh, even if it is only added for around these corners. Also consider doing the same for reinforcement at your sink cutout corners. Have fun and post pictures when done. I think 1/2 inch rebar is too big for the thickness you are pouring. I would use 1/4 inch, or pencil wire. I regularly use ladder wire with good results.
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| 03-12-2008 15:07:47 |
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Posts: 32
Joined: 01-18-2007
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If you must use Quickcrete bag mixes instead of mixing your own, use the countertop mix instead of th 5000. The 5000 and the precision grout by Quickcrete WILL shrink and curl. The countertop mix seems to work better. (I have been testing it for my local Quickcrete sales rep. for him, I personally use 3 different mixes of my own:) I also agree about the rebar. Lose the rebar and the diamond mesh and use 4 or 6 inch ladder wire. Way easier to use and much less chance of "ghosting" after screeding. If you want more reinforcement look into c-grid, very good material for reinforcement. I think Tom at Fishstone carries this as well. If your base is plywood only, make sure you have a vapor barrier on it so the wood does not "rob" to much moisture from your mix. Good luck (your gonna need it!) :)
Hope this helps
J Parris
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| 03-12-2008 15:09:57 |
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Posts: 32
Joined: 01-18-2007
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Oh yeah Dr J is right, add fibers to your mix to help with the areas mentioned. Those areas and the areas around the sink are great places for the c-grid!!
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| 03-12-2008 21:31:59 |
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Posts: 764
Joined: 05-20-2007
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do not scrap your rebar! Use it, but like someone else said use the #3 rebar instead (3/8") You can use all that other rienforcement but be sure to use that rebar in all your cracking points.
Be careful if you decide to seed in your glass too soon. If you do it too wet they will sink too far and be a major pain to grind back. I wait until the concrete is pretty firm (usually around 25-40 minutes after screeding) you just have to work them in with your hand float to get all the cream around them so they wont pop out when you grind. Also seed in ALOT more than you want to show because you wont grind them all exactly like you think when seeding. You might only get about 60-70% to show
Also when grinding that deep I usually use a super aggressive single row cup wheel that demolishes the surface to get down ther quick, then use a turbo cup to refine all your scratches. You will need to grout the whole thing before you get too far in your grinding steps.
Also that quikcrete 5000 is fine, just add 10lbs or so of portland cement to it. It will finish a lot better.
Lowes sent us some of that new quickcrete countertop mix to try out but we havent got around to it yet.
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| 03-14-2008 09:33:02 |
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Posts: 10
Joined: 03-11-2008
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Thank you all for the excellent feedback. This is a really nice online community you have going here, and it is much appreciated.
I'm goin to work this weekend building the framing and forms for everything, i'll have everything wrapped up for the big pour next saturday
If i can get the quikrete countertop mix from lowes i'll use that, otherwise i'll go with 80 lb. bags of 5000 with 10 lbs of portland cement added to each mix.
If i can get smaller rebar than 1/2" i'll use it, but i didnt get any ghosting on my test pours so im not to concerned with that
I'll be using the quikrete black (charcoal) color and seeding that with crushed blue glass after its been floated
I'm also going to put some acrylic rods in the bar slabs to be lit with fiber optic lights (i tried this in the test pour and it looks really cool)
Any other creative-type suggestions? cool things to embed in the slab?
Since im only ever planning on doing this once i want to take my time with it and make it something special
Thanks again all,
Mark
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| 03-14-2008 11:13:11 |
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Posts: 26
Joined: 02-09-2008
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Be sure to post some pictures when your done. I'd love to see the acrylic rod lit up. Did you use square stock or round?
Tom
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| 03-14-2008 12:05:58 |
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Posts: 10
Joined: 03-11-2008
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QUOTE FISHSTONE, 2008-03-14 11:13:11 Be sure to post some pictures when your done. I'd love to see the acrylic rod lit up. Did you use square stock or round?
Tom
I bought 3/8" round stock and cut it to 4" (was very cheap)
Drilled a 1/8" hole like 1/2" deep into the bottom
I set that rod in the form, sticking out the bottom and poured my test slabs around it.
Then I used a small fiber optic kit, sticking the fiber cables in the hole i drilled @ the bottom of the rod
It lights it up pretty cool, once its polished it should look even brighter
(side note... after the concrete has cured i am able to move the rod up and down, so i can even polish the tip of the rod separately and slide it back into place... its tight enough to be permanent but loose enough for adjustment. very happy with how that experiment worked out.)
I will definitely share pictures.
~ Mark
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| 03-14-2008 17:41:06 |
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Posts: 764
Joined: 05-20-2007
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Sounds cool. You can also inlay some thin geodes that you can light up as well. We just did a counter that has about 7 of them that light up with a flick of a switch. You can inlay just about anything you want as long as its flat.
I think your countertop will look awesome when done. Black color with recycled blue glass looks great by itself. With all the other custom things you have going on, it should look really cool when done.
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| 03-29-2008 14:06:23 |
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Posts: 10
Joined: 03-11-2008
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the big pour!
was today
waited another week to get some more crushed glass in the mail, thanks for the tip about seeding more than i thought i would need
6 hours of mixing, filling, floating and seeding... a pot of coffee and a handful of Advil later here i am
all went well
my chiropractor will appreciate the extra business Monday =P
i used so much rebar in the forms i had 2 bags of concrete left over from my estimates... but i guess you cant go overkill with rebar
the only issue I've had is with the seeding of the glass
most of it looks to be ok, but there are areas where no matter how much i tried to work it in the cream wouldn't get around the glass to my satisfaction
I'm concerned with losing a lot of the glass to pop-outs once i start grinding
after thinking on it my plan is as follows:
tommorow i'll break down the forms and clean up the areas
then I'll make a slurry with portland cement and the integral color i used, and add some of the acrylic fortifier Lowes sells
i want to make it pretty thin... like a sheet rock compound that has been thinned for a skim coat
then I'll coat the top of everything with the slurry, filling the voids around the glass and any other areas that need attention, making it all smooth and level
basically I'm going to spackle the whole thing with a black slurry
then I'll wait like a week before grinding, let it really cure
any thoughts? advice?
thanks all.
Mark
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| 03-30-2008 04:45:06 |
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Posts: 42
Joined: 03-20-2008
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You may not need to wait a full week. You can also add some ground glass in your grout and it will add some subtle color. Sometimes my cup wheel is to aggressive so I'll use a 50 resin pad to expose the glass.
Are you adding a backsplash?
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| 03-30-2008 04:53:13 |
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Posts: 1
Joined: 01-21-2008
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Really - not necessary wait for week - first grinding after two days is OK...
solid-art: your backsplash is very nice.
good luck,
Valeri,
St.-Petersburg, Russia
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| 03-30-2008 05:06:19 |
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Posts: 10
Joined: 03-11-2008
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my back splash will be wood trim that ties in to the wainscoting and bar shelving around the room
i used all my glass on the seeding, so there is none to add to a slurry coat
which explains why it was so hard to get a cream around the glass, there is so much of it... so if i lose some probably not the end of the world
thanks, ill slurry today and start to grind Tuesday
Mark
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| 04-02-2008 05:08:44 |
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Posts: 10
Joined: 03-11-2008
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holy dust batman
i'll be buying a better mask today
*cough*
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| 04-02-2008 08:48:52 |
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Posts: 64
Joined: 04-02-2008
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in your research, did asr come up? bfore you go to far with the polish, you may want to hit it with silicate hardener/denifier
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| 04-02-2008 09:46:41 |
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Posts: 10
Joined: 03-11-2008
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QUOTE consci, 2008-04-02 08:48:52 in your research, did asr come up? bfore you go to far with the polish, you may want to hit it with silicate hardener/denifier
No, asr wasn't an issue in my research.
From my googles tho, it seems to be an issue in higher traffic areas subject to abrasion and wear and tear.
I don't think i'm to concerend about a home bar, especially after sealing.
am I off-base?
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| 04-02-2008 09:58:02 |
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Posts: 64
Joined: 04-02-2008
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not off base just maybe not informed. Akyli silica reaction is present in all concrete, it is just the nature of the beast. The issue with you top, is that you have added a reactive component to the very top surface. Densifiers work by filling in the gaps (on a micro level) in doing so they react with the free alkyli and lock them in, stopping the negative ASR. In exterior applications the problem magnified by the use of sand, but what is glass? there are alot of guys succesfully using seeded glass, I just wanted to point out a potental issue
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| 04-02-2008 15:39:10 |
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Posts: 25
Joined: 02-20-2008
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Metakaolin is a good product that helps limit asr.
Is all the rebar really necessary for a pour in place application? The glass itself can add strength against flexure, which would be minimal since its pour in place. Definately sounds like you've done your homework!
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| 04-02-2008 18:29:53 |
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Posts: 64
Joined: 04-02-2008
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aaron is right that kaolin helps with asr, but the concrete has already been poured. The glass in this top has added nothing positive to the matrix, it is pure eye candy. Reinforcement in the form of rebar in non-cantalevered top is a bit of nonsense. There should however be some protection against plastic shrinkage cracking (psa) typically the occur where ther is a change in mass, like around the sink opening or an inside corner Some use micros to alleiveate this. I prefer to use 3/4 rock and mix it like a dry tamp. Less water=less shrinkage. My last post was to inform the diy-er of neg. effects of seeding reactive materials onto surface. Silacate hardeners are sprayed on the surface in the phase the project is cuurently in, pre-sealer
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