| shrinkage |
| 03-20-2008 05:37:56 |
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Posts: 21
Joined: 01-15-2008
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has anyone ever had an overlay get shrinkage cracks?long very thin hair line cracks almost looks like pottery.you have to get right down on it to see them.im just wondering if i can avoid this and if i should be woried that the overlay is in trouble of coming of due to this.its in side so it wont get weather abuse.
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| 03-20-2008 11:31:45 |
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that's generally from too much water being used. which means, aside from the cracks, that the material may also not cure to its ideal strength.
if the overlay is sound now, it's probably not going to get worse. as long as the owner can live with the cracks i'd leave it alone.
you might want to put a high strength sealer on it, though, like an epoxy or urethane. that might help it hold together better in case the surface weakens. it won't help adhesion to the concrete if that is a problem.
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| 03-20-2008 16:40:17 |
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Posts: 21
Joined: 01-15-2008
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i dont understand how cause im adding exactly 5 quarts of water each time and liquid color also once of delay to slow it down i have done 3 thousand sq ft of 11 thousand now and so far the clors are all the same also i am putting 2 coats of sealer on it and two coats of wax but i have used this product three times now and measured the water every bucket and twice now ive gotten shrinkage cracks the bucket calls for 5 quarts of water btw
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| 03-20-2008 16:47:15 |
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Posts: 21
Joined: 01-15-2008
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ive also moved down to the 2nd level now so maybe i should cut it down to 4 quarts cause if the color changes it shouldnt matter im doing every thing it says to do for this material its a self leveling olay btw and at 53 bucks for 50 lbs i didnt think this would happen what are you guys paying for yours?
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| 03-20-2008 17:55:44 |
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Posts: 764
Joined: 05-20-2007
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Oh man... self levelers can be tricky. At 53 dollars per bag Im guessing Ardex SD-T?? actually its more like $60 here.
By the way for future reference..use Mapei M20 its only $34 per bag and works great. Also W.R. Meadows has a good one too at the same price. (dont ever use Supercrete's self leveler, it sucks)
Anyways..if you are not priming the floor exactly as the specs say, could be the reason for the cracking. I see these cracks in a alot of self levelers. Ive used Ardex and Mapei with great success without any cracking but you have to prime the floor right.
I wouldnt change the amount of water. If you go down to 4 quarts you wont get as good flowability and your color will turn a little darker.
Look at the technical data on the bag of self leveler and see if it says that these cracks are normal. Ive seen some say that.
They say that hairline cracks are normal and do not effect the materials bond. But this wont help you sell it to the customer...
Every store in the malls around here that have used a self leveler as the finished floor ALL have these cracks in it.
If you are priming exactly how the specs say, then Id stop the job and get in touch with the manufacturer before you go any further.
Worse case scenario is you have to go over what you have already done.
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| 03-21-2008 03:55:28 |
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Posts: 1160
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conc & mc're both right but $53's per bkt, not bag - $18 more'n ours which yields about 175-200sf coverage,,, didn't see a mention of self-leveling mtls - only o'lay,,, yes, crks indicate too much wtr,,, some other ?'s - 1, a base coat ?; 2nd, do base crks reflect in top coat ; 3rd, is mtl's base &/or 2nd applied damp/dry ?,,, if you're doing it right, call QUIK for better tech support & rqst an onsite inspection as mc suggests,,, redoing 3ksf's bad enough - more'd be unacceptable,,, hopefully mtls charged rather'n paid in adv so you'd have some recourse.
best [the original] relief's-only-a-phone-call-away yic-yac
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| 05-02-2008 20:21:06 |
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Posts: 21
Joined: 01-15-2008
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About a month ago I did around 11 thou sq of overlay using a self leveling overlay by increte.
I ground the surface , degreased and cleaned well.
I put down 2 coats of bond crete.
the overlay was intgelly colored.I did a thousand sq ft with just a gauge rake which was recomended to me by the maker,I thought it looked like shit.So did the other subs at the site.I put 2 coats of sealer on it one with shark grip,then 2 coats of high gloss wax.I WAS FULLY PREPARED TO REDO THIS AREA AND TO SAY THE LEAST WANTED TO.aNY WAY THE OWNER OF THE BUILDING LOVED IT. I was shocked it looked like a hack job so i told the super i was going to do it different in the next area 3 thou sq ft.I did it and this time troweled everything looked very nice close to flawless.The owner of the building said no i want it to be rough with textured and so one.Well what ever i did it 50 50 lol.
any ways this is the problem when i was putting down the bond crete i noticed in the exsisting concrete some shrinkage cracks spiderwebbing.I POINTED THIS OUT TO THE SUPER OF THE JOB HE SHRUGGED HIS SHOULDERS. Previous to starting the job i typed up a letter of all things that could happen to the overlay including cracks on the exsisting coming up thru the overlay.
anyways i did the job and then 2 coats sealer 2 coats wax and you could only see the shrinkage and cracks if you were bent over or on your hands and knees.
Then they had the floor cleand and they used a floor machine.The next day the super called me pist saying theres fing cracks everywhere.the water musta got in the cracks and made it dark along both sides i noticed this when i mopped the areas but it dried clear again.WELL THIS DIDNT.Instead the hair line cracks that are there turned white.and stand out like a swore thumb.I have tried xylene sealer wax and concrete sealer repair with no luck to get rid of this whitening. Does anyone know what the white and the problem might be?And a possible fix.Im thinking i may have to stain seal or dye the floor.Increte isnt being much help.trying to blame me and they are saying its humidity?But they are saying its structurly sound and isnt going to break apart or come up?Could this be the bond crete bleding up?I have overlayed steps and stoops before and have had the bond leech through the faces of the steps before.not with new crete but with color hardner.
Also am I held responsable for this I told them it may happen and did everything exactly the correct way and did what they wanted.They owe me 65 thou and im thinkin i should lawyer up :(
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| 05-03-2008 10:43:09 |
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Posts: 764
Joined: 05-20-2007
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Damn that really sucks. Increte, or any manufacturer for that matter, will NEVER say its the material. On the bags it should say that the material can crack but does not effect the bond. If it doesnt, then Id let your lawyer know that Increte doesnt give any type of warning of cracking.
If you dont get paid I would for sure get a lawyer for something that size. Even if you didnt get anything signed off you should be entitled to your money if the job was installed correctly which it sounds like it was. Self levelers are notorious for these type of cracks.
The white inside the cracks could be a number of things. It almost sounds to me like whatever they used to clean the floor seeped into the cracks and left a white residue.
When you contact a lawyer let him know that it wasnt untill they had someone come in to clean the floor that all these cracks showed up white in color.
Sounds like you have a customer that is looking for anything to get out of paying.
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| 05-03-2008 13:41:50 |
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Posts: 1160
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all the things you ' said ' were in writing, correct ??? were mtls spec'd in const plans/documents by name or did you submit alternates for approval ??? many time supts have hearing troubles,,, that's why EVERYTHING'S in writing that can affect pymt.
best [the original] don't-ask-me-how-i-learned-this yic-yac
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| 05-03-2008 15:27:39 |
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Posts: 823
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not that this is necessarily the problem, but there's nothing i've done more on this board than warn people about kemiko and increte products. those are two of the worst companies in the decorative concrete industry. they make a ton of money and they put absolutely none of into product quality or customer/technical support. it is absolutely appalling.
that said, whitening is from moisture most of the time. cracks, cuts, and joints suck up more moisture and take longer to dry. even when they look dry, they may not be. that's why you have to wait at least 36-48 hours after the final rinse before sealing.
if these areas were not white when you sealed and became such after cleaning, that means the cracks, cuts, and joints were not sealed adequately. water got through and then couldn't get back out. thus the whitening.
whitening in the sealer can be fixed with xylene or lacquer thinner. sometimes it goes away by itself after several days, so you should wait at least that long.
whitening in the wax/floor finish will also sometimes go away. if it does not, though, the wax/finish has to be stripped and re-applied. you cannot fix that with xylene or lacquer thinner.
i feel bad about your situation but that is one of the problems dealing with companies like kemiko and increte. if you get into trouble, they will never even consider the possibility it could be their product at fault, and what's worse, they won't even provide you any tech support or assistance on how to fix it. they have their money. they don't care about your situation or the project.
like i posted a couple months ago, if you go to increte's web site, the first thing they talk about is their "spacious, ultramodern 130,000 sq.ft. corporate headquarters." so who cares about product quality, let alone some piddly little contractor like you or i? they're living in luxury!
if it were me, i would have a coatings inspector come and inspect. if it did turn out to be defective product, then i would find a good lawyer to sue them and put them out of their misery for good.
but why were you using a solvent acrylic sealer in the first place? and only 2 coats? what kind of facility is this? it sounds like you should have used a water/oil repellent, a densifier, or an epoxy, urethane, or polyurea. most big jobs like this have a spec from an architect. was there one for this job? 2 coats of epoxy or polyurea would have been enough but not 2 coats of acrylic.
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| 05-19-2008 21:11:13 |
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Posts: 4
Joined: 05-23-2007
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USCONC is right. Our company works exclusively on commercial projects and there is no way in hell you would ever find our company using standard acrylics as a final sealer. We found it to be far too time consuming to hear about 'fixes' to old jobs that were just barely maintained. We now use either a water based 2 part epoxy and water based urethane combo or polyaspartics on all of our projects. The products cost more but if the project is bid correctly, they are easily affordable and are well worth the investment for long term performance.
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