| Making my own overlay |
| 04-18-2008 09:19:30 |
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Posts: 6
Joined: 03-28-2008
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Yes, I do realize you may have panicked when you read that but here goes. Overlay systems, to the best of my knowledge are made up of some simple ingredients. They consist of different grades of silica sand, Portland cement and of coarse the polymer additive.
I'm really getting tired of paying out the you know what for this mixture and kits that contain this mixture including the jug of wet polymer. Also, the shipping charges are insane. So, what if I make my own.
I have a recipe from someone who has been in the trade for 20 years. I know most of you may be skeptical of doing this on your own, but its not that difficult. 3 grades of silica, cement and the polymer, dry or wet....its not brain surgery, right?
Here is my trouble. I'm trying to locate a local distributor who produces these silicas. If anyone has any input on silica distributors in the mid-south or near Memphis, TN please let me know. I think its worth looking into. I mean, if I'm paying $55 plus shipping for a 50 pound bag, when I could be making this stuff at less than $10 a bag, that would be huge savings in my pocket.
Anyone have any input on this? thanks, Brian
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| 04-18-2008 10:13:32 |
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panicked? hardly.
laughed is more like it. because you're crazy.
that's not all that goes into a good overlay mix. the good ones have other additives as well.
and is it really worth your time and effort to mix what will end up only being an adequate grade material?
you may consider the price unreasonable but at $30-$40 a bag, the overlay material ends up being quite a small portion of the overall cost of a project.
you should have no problem passing that cost on to your customers. if you do, and if you can't make a good profit using overlay material at that price, then there is either a problem with your estimating, your marketing, or the quality of your work.
if you deem it imperative to start mixing your own overlays, you might as well start making your own stain and sealer as well. as far as coverage goes, those products are both more expensive per square foot than overlay material.
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| 04-18-2008 16:49:01 |
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Posts: 75
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$50 is too high. Reliable mixes are out there for under $35, even $25. Look around.
USCONC is right, it is not as simple as tossing the chemicals and raw material together. There is a synergy to it and bad synergy and its results may not show themselves for months. Find a reasonably priced product you like and price your work accordingly.
Just an opinion.
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| 04-19-2008 04:12:16 |
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you're absolutely right, bri,,, ' to the best of { your } knowledge ' is an accurate description,,, forget +/- measuring tolerances, supplier changes unknown to you, storage of base mtls, time invested, inventory shrinkage, mtl loss during transport, yada, yada, yada.
know 1 fellow who had a ' recipe ' & made his own,,, switch'd to bagg'd but, from what i understand, after a yr he rtd to his roll-your-own recipe,,, guess he'd forgotten how much call-backs subtract from the btm line,,, its always risk vs reward,,, good luck !
best [the original] open-bag-&-just-add-water yic-yac
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| 04-20-2008 21:57:01 |
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Posts: 83
Joined: 12-25-2007
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I know a guy who mixes his own and it is I.....I have my own mix recipes for stamp, skim-bond, slate trowel texture and paper thin micro finishes. The only recipe calling for something different in the mix other than cement sand and polymers is the micro mix which I add extra material too.
I generally use type 3 portland cement because it achieves most of its strength within the first week of cure, because I like to return my work to the client a.s.a.p.
I get my silica sands from carmeuse Industrial sands located in glenford ohio. I pay $136 for a #3000 skid. The ground silica flour for the micro is $199 per skid. I can get 100 bags of skim bond coat out of 1 skid of sand.
On the job I am working now if I would have bought the 80 bags from one of the olay companies it would have been around $3200. I mixed my own for $880, a very substantial cost savings.
I would put my mixes to a side by side test with any of the olay companies materials. I have used quite a fews materials and what I produce is just as quality a material.
I have switched to the dry polymer from the liquid. Most all liquids are cut with water the dry is 100% solids
Make sure to get a good quality platform scale for weighing your material
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| 04-21-2008 10:11:33 |
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hardly anybody uses 80 bags of overlay on one job. that's what you would use for a 12,000 sq.ft. project. jobs of that size come along very infrequently for the vast majority of decorative concrete contractors.
if you're doing big jobs like that all the time, and you have a bunch of low wage laborers, maybe it makes sense to mix your own stuff. but for most contractors, saving $25 a bag on a normal sized project of around 1,000-2,000 sq.ft, would only result in an overall savings of around $250-500.
that kind of savings sure isn't worth it to me to spend all the time and expense of ordering the stuff, picking it up, unloading and warehousing it, and mixing it. instead, i can bill all those hours out doing actual decorative work and make even more money.
in economics, it's called competitive advantage. you make money doing what you are best at and leave the other stuff to those who are best geared up to do that. i would never waste my time mixing materials by hand. aside from it being a competitve disdadvantage, it's tedious and boring.
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| 04-22-2008 15:55:36 |
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Posts: 83
Joined: 12-25-2007
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usconc has some valid points. The 80 bags were used to cover only 1600 sq. ft. I still feel mixing your own materials is very easy. I do not see a difference keeping a few skids of silica sand compared to a few skids of material. It really doesn't take much time at all to weigh up your materials. For instance when I got home today at 5 I weighed up 15 bags for fridays job, took 1/2 hour to weigh it all, cost savings $480, which translates into $960.00 per hr. for weighing material, nothing to sneeze at. I simply weigh into 5 gallon buckets throw a lid on it then load it into truck go to the job. Simply pour one 5 gallon bucket into another with water and mix.
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| 04-22-2008 20:29:11 |
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USCON
"hardly anybody uses 80 bags of overlay on one job. that's what you would use for a 12,000 sq.ft. project. jobs of that size come along very infrequently for the vast majority of decorative concrete contractors."
At what depth are you able to get 80 bags of overlay to cover 12K sqft ? Are speaking of a micro top or stampable olay?
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| 05-08-2008 10:29:14 |
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Posts: 28
Joined: 03-07-2008
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I know how to mix my own overlay, here is the recipe.
Using a 44 0z cup this will make a 5 gallon bucket 3/4 full.
3 cups of water to 1 1/2 cups acrylic resin(acryl 60) this measures out to 1 gallon water to 1/2 gallon acrylic. for the Silica sand i use 4 cups of #60 and 2 cups #30 to 3 cups white portland cement. Add color if you want also. Learned this from JPJ Technologies.
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| 05-08-2008 23:47:44 |
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Posts: 83
Joined: 12-25-2007
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skim-bond coat/splatter/slate trowel mix
20 lbs of #50 or #60 sieve
10 lbs of #30 sieve
20 lbs white or grey portland cement
2 lbs dry polymer or 2 qts liquid polymer
5-8 quarts water depending on desired finish
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| 05-14-2008 13:16:55 |
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Posts: 308
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I was a Concrete Coatings Inc., installer. Started making my own overlay mix using 1 part white portland, 2 parts silica sand by weight. When your weighing this you will notice that silica sand is about twice as heavy as cement, so I was able to mix this quickly on the job, with once bucket white cement to 1 bucket silica sand. I always used the CCI acrylic modifier. Mixing it myself worked really well on small jobs, porches, steps, small patios. For the larger jobs like driveways and commercial projects just order the premixed bags. Mixing it yourself works fine with the CCI system, and the CTI system as well which is the same thing. However, I would not try this with some of the other manufacturers materials. I also installed QC and Colormaker but would never attempt to mix my own.
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| 05-14-2008 16:21:41 |
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Posts: 190
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I'm sure there are guys out there that have a very good mix design for overlays. If you stand behind them and keep the customer happy, why not.
The problem I have are the "chemists" that slap and run. I don't know how many projects I have grounded off that have been down less than a year for the quick buck installers. Acryl 60 is the pits for a polymer binder. Way watered down, too brittle.... for at least the Midwest applications.
Save a couple bucks on the bag. Just take care of the customer when it starts to fail. gene dcs inc.
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| 05-14-2008 19:53:15 |
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Posts: 723
Joined: 05-20-2007
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I remember before all these nice bagged mixes came about we would use.
Base coat: 50% grey portland, 50% 60 grit silica sand and 50/50 water/polymer consentrate
Finish coat: portland cement/polymer.
We first started with latex additives and they worked pretty good for interior only (exterior was a different story), but when using a good acrylic/polymer that basic mix has always worked and held up really well.
I still dont think any of these bagged mixes are really any better to be honost, just convenient. Having a good binder is what counts.
I havent found a stronger polymer than Sinak's Relay yet, but its real expensive.
Ill still do my own mix every now and then but for bigger jobs I just go with a good bag mix
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| 06-07-2008 07:53:04 |
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Posts: 5
Joined: 06-07-2008
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I using Versa-crete polymer concentrate, I'm using their "make your own" mix and addmix ratios and not coming up with good results when I try to reduce it for smaller areas, (too dry). For microtopping, base and final smooth. Does anyone have a suggestion for a better way of measuring out basically small or medium size jobs? I like this 50/50 cement and silica below but what's an better way of determining your adding the right amount of polymer and water, is it just by desired workability?
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| 06-07-2008 13:39:31 |
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Posts: 190
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Personal thoughts..... you're playing with fire.... Why not go with a proven bag mix? I guess it's a testosterone thing.
No balls.... gene (no call backs either)
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| 06-08-2008 07:05:19 |
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either you're using ' their "make your own" mix ' or you're not,,, how could anyone recognize desired ' workability ' when every mix's different ??? even IF you could duplicate rudimentary mix/mtl'liquid ratioes, every time we pick up a trowel things're still different.
point is - there are some constants - why introduce so many variables ???
best [the original] not-reinventing-the-wheel yic-yac
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| 07-10-2008 17:05:06 |
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Posts: 3
Joined: 07-10-2008
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IF YOU DO DECIDE TO GO WITH THE MAKE YOUR OWN ROUTE. I WOULD REALLY CONSIDER HAVING A COMPANY TOLL BLEND YOUR BAGS FOR YOU. IT IS CHEAPER AND IT IS YOUR MIX BUT ACTUALLY MIXING YOUR OWN IS HARD. WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU DON'T SCOOP EXACTLY RIGHT EACH TIME. I DON'T THINK IT A BAD IDEA TO SAVE MONEY WHEN YOU CAN AS LONG AS YOU DON'T SACRIFICE QUALITY TO DO SO. IT CAN BE DONE THOUGH JUST KNOW THAT SOMEONE IS MIXING THE BIG SUPPLIERS BAGS ALSO. i CAN'T STAND PAYING ALMOST $300 ON SHIPPING WITH THE FUEL COST SO HIGH ON 15 BAGS OF MIX AND 15 GALLONS OF WATERED DOWN POLYMER. GOOD LUCK ANY ROUTE YOU GO JUST WANTED YOU TO HAVE SOME POSITIVE FEEDBACK BECAUSE THE MIXES ARE BASICALLY THE SAME & THE COMPETITORS CAN BE ANALYZED.
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| 07-11-2008 18:24:51 |
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Posts: 323
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I do not want this to come across as rude or make anyone mad, but doesn't take a lot of time to gather the materials, store them, find a place to mix them and hope the mix design works? I'm with Gene on this one, find a trusted supplier and let them make some money. Open up the bag mix and apply. Who has the time to mix there own bags for every job? Back when we used to do alot of overlays we had two, to four jobs going every week. A supplier will have proven systems from start to finish.
Demus
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| 07-11-2008 18:40:35 |
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Posts: 83
Joined: 12-25-2007
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Use a platform scale and 5 gallon bucket to weigh up your material. You can get a good digital platform scale from harbor freight for $99.00 it weighs out to a 100th of a pound. Every single batch will be the same.
I weighed out 15 buckets in 45 minutes for my last job, my cost with cement,polymer,silica sand....$135.00. If I would have bought prebagged mix it would have been $600.00. $600-$135=$465.00. That translates into $500.00 an hour for my time. At 2 jobs a week that translates into $48,360.00 savings a year for 2 hrs a week weighing up material...definately nothing to sneeze at!!!!!!!!!!!
Kirk
Dec-a-Crete
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