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Contractor Heads Up
usconc	04-24-2008 19:38:14
Member Posts: 823 Joined: --	i post this as a warning, that you decorative contractors out there need to be particularly careful in structuring your contracts for commercial work. it's really just further proof of what most good contractors in this forum already know: that gc's are generally duplicitous and crooked when it comes to closing out the contracts of their subs. not just slow to pay but PURPOSELY slow to pay. this info is from the lead estimator of a top 50 gc, one of the oldest in the u.s. it is this particular gc's STATED (internal) POLICY to pay the salaries of all their estimators and office staff from the interest they make from holding on to the money they owe their subs after the owner has paid them. that way, everything else they make on a job is then pure profit. this particular gc generally gets paid by the owner within 30 days of completing their work. the gc's contracts with their subs say they will pay "when paid" by the owner. but according to the estimator, the gc never pays before 90 days and often holds on to money for up to a year and more. upon inquiries by subs for payment though, staff is instructed to just put them off and tell them it is in process. needless to say, their policy is a success. this gc firm is almost a hundered years old and one of the most successful in the u.s. i haven't had a problem with this type of policy myself. i generally work directly with a project owner or if it is a gc, i insist on using my own contract, which calls for payment on completion. i still have to pester the gc's staff for final payment, but because they signed the contract, and they know the money is due, i generally get it within a couple weeks. most gc's in my area seem to understand that good decorative contractors don't grow on trees, so they usually don't cop the normal arrogant attitude. but i know plenty of contractors in other trades that have this problem regularly and end up having to write off a consistent percentage of their contracts as losses. and i think in areas where there are an abundance of decorative contractors, warm weather regions like texas and florida, it is probably a problem for decorative contractors as well. i can't say who this gc is or how i got the info, but it is straight from the horse's mouth. so beware you guys. gc's are as crooked as attorneys and politicians and deliberately so. don't let them take advantage of you. insist on using your own contracts. insist on a deposit and progress payments. get their signature, don't give them yours, if you can help it. there is enough work in our industry that we don't have to pander to their nonsense.

scarab1	04-27-2008 06:12:28
Member Posts: 33 Joined: 10-24-2007	very interesting. what a scheme.

customc	04-27-2008 06:29:43
Member Posts: 76 Joined: 02-02-2008	no doubt i try to stick with residential homeowners myself .nice to get paid 3 to 5 times a week.

MC	04-27-2008 21:52:40
Member Posts: 764 Joined: 05-20-2007	Once I submit a progress payment, no matter who the GC is, it always seems to take about 2 months before I get a check. Sometimes longer. They always say it takes about 3-4 weeks but that never happens. Also If I told them I wasnt going to sign their contract (most of them are like reading a book they are so long and detailed) and they had to sign mine, Id get laughed at and sent down the road. It used to be that we were able to get a deposit up front on commercial, but those days are gone. Its the GC's way or the highway. If all of us subs would actually stand our ground then maybe things would be different. Everybody will do anything just to get the job here so that will never happen either. If I can I try to get a contract with the owner, not the GC and GC's get pissed when that hapens. Most of my bid invitations say "subs are not allowed to contact owner". I cant stand working under a GC. Its like winning the lottery if you get paid in full on time.

JeffG	04-28-2008 13:52:34
Member Posts: 52 Joined: --	hhmmm... doesn't suprise me one bit..

Gregg	04-28-2008 14:12:11
Member Posts: 750 Joined: --	Some of the crap these GC's are coming up with is insane. I was on a project recently and in one area we had to shot blast the concrete to remove some coating. Nothing else. They wanted a 1 year warranty on the shot blast surface. Uh. WTF is there to warranty? Yes, it will stay shot blasted for 1 year unless someone smooths it out.

Texas Concrete Design	04-28-2008 15:18:13
Member Posts: 29 Joined: 12-16-2007	Not to defend the GC's, but a lot of this crazy things they do is spec'ed by the architect/ owner. If you look at a set of specs, every section of every division (2-16) calls for warranties. In order for a GC to get his retainage, all close out documents, warranties, etc has to conform to the project specs/ contract documents.

suntacsys	04-28-2008 18:54:55
Member Posts: 1160 Joined: --	the original post specifically mentioned payment & retainage,,, i've yet to see any specs that even SLIGHTLY imply a gc doesn't have to pay for mtls or sub-labor,,, its is usually also spec'd that the owner pay the gc who, in turn, must pay the sub-contractor,,, there is usually a timeline involved along w/clauses requiring the project to be kept lien-free,,, the guarantee's not the big problem - getting paid ON TIME is ! ! ! best [the original] where's-my-money yic-yac

gmavridis	04-29-2008 22:19:46
Member Posts: 48 Joined: 04-30-2007	These scumbags aren't just limited to the USA..................we have them here in Australia too. They make a habit of getting rich off the hard work and sweat of the smaller guys.

usconc	04-30-2008 04:41:57
Member Posts: 823 Joined: --	there is a thing called principle in this business. not enough contractors stand firm on it. the lure and attraction of a nice big commercial stained concrete floor is generally just too much to pass up. contractors will fall all over themselves to capitulate and pander to the gc if they can just get the job. they'll lower their original price. they'll agree to all kinds of ridiculous contract clauses related to insurance and contract payment. they'll agree to do additional work for free instead of insisting on a change order. and they'll put up with all kinds of on-the-job nonsense with other trades interfering with and damaging their work. it's ridiculous. there is more than enough good work out there to go around and to keep honest, principled contractors busy. there are more than enough good project owners, and yes even enough honest builders, that appreciate and want to work with good contractors. yes, even builders that will agree to sign YOUR contract, if it's professional and reasonably done. but they don't grow on trees. you have to make an effort to find them. and that means conducting a good marketing and advertising campaign and taking the intiative to network with other good companies, such as are found on the dmoz. but if you want just take the easy way, pay for a listing on concrete network, and sit back and wait for the calls, then forget about it. the only way to encourage honesty and true professionalism in the contracting business is to be that way yourself and refuse to reward the deceptive and dishonest practices of others. it ain't gonna happen overnight, but somebody's got to stand up to nonsense like i described above or it's just going to continue and get worse. you give gc's an inch and they'll take a mile. and hold you accountable for it no less.

caTom	04-30-2008 18:19:39
Member Posts: 3 Joined: 04-27-2008	Its all about principals and integrity. What a great statement made by usconc - I dont know who you are, but that is how to live and do business. I stand by my word as my father taught me, no matter what it costs or how hard it is to do so. The big companies dont have a prayer of doing that.

MC	04-30-2008 19:31:53
Member Posts: 764 Joined: 05-20-2007	usconc I totally agree. I wish all of us subs would stand up for ourselves instead of taking it up the ass just to get the big job. The problem is , like you said, that there will always be the guy that will do anyhting the GC says to get the job. I am going to start demanding my terms from now on. If it means losing the contract, then so be it. I ll let the other guy deal with the BS. I am tired of never being payed on time, 10% retainage never getting paid, change orders never getting paid on, getting thrown into the mix of all other trades on the floor, always having to meet insane deadlines, never getting a deposit..etc etc Now there are a handful of GC's that I have worked for that have been very good, but the majority of the bigger ones are a pain in the ass and are all crooked. Also when bidding on a job for the first time with a new GC, they always ask for 5 referances. I am going to start asking them for 5 referances of subs so I can find out how the GC is to work for.

JeffB	05-05-2008 07:02:12
Member Posts: 10 Joined: 11-19-2006	Wow, You all are starting to scare me. Most work I do is residential therefore always getting paid when finished. But I have worked with three GC's in the past. One I've done 3 jobs for and the other two only one job each. Each time in my proposal I stated 40% deposit/retainer and the ballance due upon completion of my staining or coatings. And each of those times I've never waited longer than 7-10 business day's to get paid. Although in one of the contracts I signed said I'd get paid within 60 days of the GC finishing the build out project. and when I handed my proposal/contract to them he said he never signed a subs before. I told him that it spells out my process of staining project and sealers I'm using, etc. He signed it. I got paid about 10 days after I finished. I guess I've been lucky. I've got an 8500 SF floor I was asked to bid on with a contractor I've never done work for before. I hope my luck continues. -Jeff

MC	05-05-2008 17:35:30
Member Posts: 764 Joined: 05-20-2007	Its mainly the bigger commercial GC's that like to screw over subs not the residential ones (usually) I have had the best luck getting paid on time with residential GC's

suntacsys	05-05-2008 18:07:43
Member Posts: 1160 Joined: --	customer/client training's another world,,, in nyc, we never work'd for the gc's but, instead, got ALL our work from supts as they're the 1's who build,,, get next to them - & you'll have work & be pd on-time. here's an idea you may've already thought of but its worth repeating,,, when you get a call from a new client/gc, ask him how he heard of you,,, many times these guys're just surfing but you really want to know their subs' names as references,,, good ones have no problem giving them out. this all came from getting a call from a boston gc building 1 of the 1st n e h-d's years ago when we were in upstate ny,,, asked why he didn't use ' local ' guys & he said he'd been referr'd to us as knowing how to repair troubles,,, he'd pass'd 100's to reach us,,, a further check show'd he never pd his subs on time/all that was due them/inflated charge-backs. best [the original] gas-was-MUCH-less-expensive-then yic-yac

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