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anyone try those ishines
MC	04-30-2008 20:06:38
Member Posts: 723 Joined: 05-20-2007	I think Mile may have tried them before but has anyone used the ishines from Innovatech? Any feedback? Mile do you guys have any v-harrs that will fit the htc800 yet?

Mile	05-01-2008 06:22:05
Member Posts: 323 Joined: --	The I-shines (DPPS - www.schleifinnovationen.com) work pretty good MC, the lower grits are much better and cut much more consistently than the HTC hybrid’s (or any other ‘hybrids’ for that matter). The higher grits work very well yet they do not produce the same results within the same time as the V-Harr’s do (and they're relatively much more expensive) or the Z9 Pro-Shine’s for that matter – (The V-Harr’s do come in 10 ¾” size for HTC800, 32" Predator and the like)

Jim Cuviello	05-01-2008 08:53:36
Member Posts: 151 Joined: --	Mile, I got to play with those and I have to say on the concrete we used them on the results were fantastic!

Mile	05-01-2008 09:10:40
Member Posts: 323 Joined: --	Jim, Denis did a green terrazzo floor with them over the weekend using the 32" proto-type and it turned out incredible (that's 1800 finish) -

MC	05-01-2008 10:12:24
Member Posts: 723 Joined: 05-20-2007	mile what are those pads in the picture? By the way I dont like the hybrids from htc at all. Have you ever tried the granquartz erasors? I have them for my hand grinder and they work really well. I havent tried the 3" ones for the machine yet.

Mile	05-01-2008 15:40:42
Member Posts: 323 Joined: --	MC these are phenolic polishing pads designed in a very particular way and by far they're the fastest ones I’ve ever put my hands on ------------------ P.S. No I haven’t tried those erasor floor discs nor I’ve heard anything about them

MC	05-01-2008 16:35:43
Member Posts: 723 Joined: 05-20-2007	Do you sell these?

Mile	05-01-2008 17:29:36
Member Posts: 323 Joined: --	Not yet MC, they will be officially available around the 20th of this month

MC	05-01-2008 19:22:25
Member Posts: 723 Joined: 05-20-2007	Cool Mile. So these are similar to the v-harr because they come in sizes of the full tool holder plate right? Are these velcro backed? Also I remember asking you about those waffle pads Superabrasive came out with but I never hear of anyone using them. I really wanted to try some of those too but I dont know. Which type of resins would you recomend for polishing harder concrete? I know it all depends on how well each step is refined, but in your experience which type do you like the best for "most" floors

jlacy	05-02-2008 08:23:16
Member Posts: 54 Joined: 11-05-2007	Mile Looking at the V-harr and the new pads you are offering along with the Ishine pads, I do alot of my demo's with my 18 inch stone machine how will these pads perform. Also if they are full size pads how will they do under a 20 high speed machine as a source of polishing.

MC	05-02-2008 08:56:20
Member Posts: 723 Joined: 05-20-2007	I was just going to ask the same thing about a burnisher. I see they come in 24" and 27". Wondering how they would perform under a high speed burnisher for a quick re-shine on an existing polished floor.

Mile	05-02-2008 09:58:44
Member Posts: 323 Joined: --	QUOTE MC, 2008-05-01 19:22:25 Cool Mile. So these are similar to the v-harr because they come in sizes of the full tool holder plate right? Are these velcro backed? MC the Z9 pads are not similar at all to the V-Harr’s. Yes like them they are a single piece (and velcro-backed), but that’s as far as it goes and it is done that way for convenience and time saving purposes (wherever permitted by the equipment). Other than that they work in a completely different way. The current size the Z9 Pro-Shine’s come in is 9”/228mm diameter and depending on the equipment used they could easily be pre-cut onto 5 pieces (each pad) without loosing their cutting and polishing capabilities. We have experimented using them on a small Advance scrubber for maintenance purposes (#1500/#3000gr) and the results were quite successful (in any case much better than any maintenance scrubbing pads out there incl. the Twister's and the like). As for the Waffle’s - they cut extremely well, but they are a higher density bond suitable for low to medium density concrete only (unless you are willing to work under consistent water-flow all the way) As far as recommendations for harder concrete MC, I don’t think they exist in real world, it is all irrelevant unless you take it one floor at a time and configure your tooling (size, number of pieces, bonding configuration, design of the working-face) accordingly to both – the very floor you’re about to do and the very equipment you are about to use. Most companies out there sell systems. Well systems do not work! There are different variables involved in every job You are talking about hard concrete - a concrete slab could have higher density for a number of different reasons such as add-mixtures, aggregate composition and concentration, porosity levels, type of mix – Portland-based or polymer-modified, fly-ash and siliceous content, installation & finishing methods etc., and you do need to approach it accordingly, you can’t just swap pads under the machine, guessing and applying a ‘template’ won’t always work and could cost you dearly on consumables and labor. MC, it takes planning. Take it one job at the time, do some preliminary tests and samples, gather as much background information on the slab as you could and run everything through your supplier (and other fellow contractors if you still ain’t sure and have doubts about what to use and how to use it)

Mile	05-02-2008 10:05:21
Member Posts: 323 Joined: --	John, doing demos with a mono-brush low RPM polisher is a risky business (especially when it comes to polishing). Unless you are going to use the same machine after (given you get the job) or a machine that operates under the same or very similar down-pressure and speed levels the results (and efforts) would never be the same. Speed is a Turnkey-factor when it comes to polishing of any hard materials. I can’t see the V-Harr’s doing much under 150/175 RPM’s. The Z9’s will work (pre-cut, 3 to 4 pcs per grit). On a burnisher yes, but then you’ve got to take into consideration the down-pressure required, the pressure your machine is capable of providing and choose the right size pads accordingly (in terms of both – diameter wise and the number of resin diamond pellets and rows). In any case, it is all trial and error, such tests are yet to be done

jlacy	05-02-2008 10:18:17
Member Posts: 54 Joined: 11-05-2007	Thank you for the info, I agree with the remark on the buffer however I truely hate dragging machines around to perform a demo and usually the area is small enough that i can make the machine usually respond very close to larger unit. I am hoping to add the small lavina to my tools soon to do demo and small areas, I see this being a huge market for me, for some reason people are wanting the laundry rooms done I am not upset over this but the larger machine sucks in that area and I hate to use the 175 for that because of time. The 175 will do i great job when I use the my satelite head but still is slow. I am still wanting to try the vharr out pretty soon, but the jobs have been more stone lately then concrete either way is fine as long as bread is on the table I am happy.

MC	05-02-2008 13:34:03
Member Posts: 723 Joined: 05-20-2007	cmon Mile that doesnt help me :) Just give me the magic answer of which tooling I can use on hard concrete and get consistant results. I dont have deep enough pockets to buy every kind of diamond tooling on the market to have for when a particular diamond isnt working good enough. I wouldnt think that the commercial concrete here would vary that much to where I would have to use a different set up every time. All I know is that EVERY commercial slab here is very hard. ALL of them. The aggregate used is the same aggregate on every job with maybe the exeption of some jobs using a slightly larger or smaller grade. But its still the same kind. Dubbs knows...what does he use for most slabs?

Mile	05-02-2008 16:18:10
Member Posts: 323 Joined: --	QUOTE MC, 2008-05-02 13:34:03 . ..I dont have deep enough pockets to buy every kind of diamond tooling on the market to have for when a particular diamond isnt working good enough. MC, that is the very reason why I am saying - Systems don’t work. Instead of spending money, spend time re-evaluating and assessing what you had problems with, what you weren’t happy with and wish you could have done better on particular job and nail it down so you can make a wiser tooling selection next time, things are not that complicated. Let me ask you this even though I am pretty sure what your answer’s gonna be :) [you said ‘All I know is that EVERY commercial slab here is very hard. ALL of them’] – How do you normally do your grinding on such slabs – Do you go dry all the way every time, semi-wet, wet, wet & dry on such concrete slabs?

MC	05-02-2008 16:42:40
Member Posts: 723 Joined: 05-20-2007	Id like to go dry all the time, but I found out real fast that sometimes going wet with metals is the only way to get things going on these floors

Mile	05-02-2008 18:18:34
Member Posts: 323 Joined: --	MC, if you're dealing with such grade concrete slabs all the time going dry as far, as grinding goes is pretty much out of question unless you're indeed equipped for it (and I don't know of anybody nor I've of heard of anyone in N. America being equipped that way.. .which doesn't mean much . ..but still). Then it comes to what you use for grinding (given you're to polish that very floor floor not just waterglassing it). Obviously if you are using some sort of irregular shape segments you would likely have an irregular scratch profile (unless you do numerous passes over and over again) that would be pretty hard on your resins resulting a hazy gloss and likely resin transfer deposited and burnished onto the floor [ a typical "Superfloor" look ] Take a closer look of the scratch pattern established by each step you do and try memorazing it, take notes of how many passes at what pace with what type of tooling & grit size you do and how smooth is the transition between grits, and 'jingle' with it. Learn and study the profile each of your tools create and find a way how to control it by adjusting the down-pressure and speed-levels of your machine and your pace speed. Although possible, I doubt that the problem is only in the tooling that you have (unless some all purpose Chinese knock-off's), but rather the way you use it ----------- P.S. What is your supplier's input on that matter? Did you ever attend the "HTC Concrete Polishing University".?. :) [ I am sorry I know you are using HTC's and I just couldn't resist :) ]

gmavridis	05-02-2008 19:58:09
Member Posts: 47 Joined: 04-30-2007	Mile If I wasn't confused before regarding tooling abd different floors................I am now. lol

MC	05-02-2008 23:16:27
Member Posts: 723 Joined: 05-20-2007	Great advice Mile. Now when you say irregular segment shape, you pretty much mean every segmented diamond out there besides turbo cups, terrazzo plugs and discs right?? Yes I do run HTC equipment but I have never attended nor do I ever plan on attending their so called university (which Im sure is a joke) My whole experience with HTC has been a huge let down from their selection of tooling to their idiotic sales men (or what they like to call them "field reps" lol) I do somewhat like the grinder for the most part besides the belts, a plastic shroud that gets beat up easily, a stupid dust skirt that falls apart on every job, cheap 2" hoses that tear easily ( I always have to have duct tape handy)..etc I actually wouldnt mind selling all my HTC stuff and starting over with someone else. Lavina and PrepMaster is where I should have gone. Dont be suprised if you see all my equipment on ebay soon :) By the way, how are those 32" Lavinas working out? I have plates for my grinder that will accept the overpriced Husqvarna tooling as well as plates for Granquartz metals. I do not run a single tool from HTC anymore.

Mile	05-03-2008 12:37:11
Member Posts: 323 Joined: --	QUOTE gmavridis, 2008-05-02 19:58:09 If I wasn't confused before regarding tooling abd different floors................I am now. lol There is no place for confusion George, things are not as complicated as they sound (although you could easily get ‘lost’) . How would you approach a large project - would you try to do the whole floor at the same time (which is usually impossible) or you would rather brake it into sections and then blend those sections together It is the same thing here - brake the process down into 'sections' (grinding, honing, polishing). Evaluate, re-evaluate and master each one (approach every problem right on the spot before getting into the next ‘section’) and then do the same merging (‘blending’) the first two ‘sections’ together and then merging the merged (‘blended’) ones with the third/last one (and that is the easy part as unlike compact marble or granite concrete isn't that hard and there is a pretty thin margin between the mid/high hones and the polishing steps, especially when you work dry)

Mile	05-03-2008 12:47:22
Member Posts: 323 Joined: --	QUOTE MC, 2008-05-02 23:16:27 Now when you say irregular segment shape, you pretty much mean every segmented diamond out there besides turbo cups, terrazzo plugs and discs right?? By the way, how are those 32" Lavinas working out? MC, basically excluding anything that ain’t (a perfect shape) round. I would add to your list the round-shape segmented ‘cakes’ as well. Also, in case you’re doing it – completely forget about the baloonies reversing the direction of the heads while working with the machine “in order to increase the life of your diamonds” (that works on stationary equipment where the work-piece is placed on a leveled and calibrated bed/table and is subjected to constant, numerically controlled thrust pressure ratios). The 32” machines work great MC, in a matter of fact it is the best floor polishing machine I have ever used in terms of results vs. time. The continuous repetition movement of the 6 heads (one after another about 5” apart from each other in the very same lane where the linear speed is at its highest levels) and the set counter-rotation constant speed of the whole drum at any given time provides much tighter scratch-pattern and much faster closure of the surface. The very same applies for grinding with the exception of high density concrete – the machine could use another 200lb (if all six heads are to be used). That wasn’t thought about originally, but now it’s been all taken care of, as it is permitted by the design - The inner mechanics could safely handle a thrust/axial (and radial) load of another 300 and some pounds. That will provide an adjustable Net down-pressure of 95lb to about 140lb per head.

MC	05-03-2008 21:38:37
Member Posts: 723 Joined: 05-20-2007	Couldnt you also take three of the heads off for harder grinding? I think I remember one of the Lavina reps at the woc telling me that you could..but I may be mistaken. Ill tell you what Mile, get someone to buy my HTC equipment and Ill buy one of those Lavina 32's from you :) I actually would like to get one before the end of this month for an upcoming job but Im sure it wont happen that soon I was just looking at the specs on the superabrasive site and it says it has 551 lbs of down pressure but doesnt say if thats weighted or not. Im guessing thats unweighted being that the net weight of the machine is about 800lbs. Does Superabrasive make some heavy weights? Cause I dont see how you could stack 35lb weights up for a total of 300 extra lbs to get that 140lb down pressure for each head..there would be no room for all those weights right?

Mile	05-04-2008 10:12:26
Member Posts: 323 Joined: --	QUOTE MC, 2008-05-03 21:38:37 Couldnt you also take three of the heads off for harder grinding? I think I remember one of the Lavina reps at the woc telling me that you could..but I may be mistaken. Ill tell you what Mile, get someone to buy my HTC equipment and Ill buy one of those Lavina 32's from you :) . ..I dont see how you could stack 35lb weights up for a total of 300 extra lbs.. . Yes, you could take of 3 of the heads off and turn it into a regular 3-head 32” machine, but that’s not the point, the machine is engineered and designed as a 6-head unit (unlike any other on the market). In regards to the specs listed on the SA’s spec sheets – there appear to be some discrepancies there MC (perhaps on the graphic designer/printer’s side). As far as adding extra weights - There is plenty of space (just like on any other machine) on the corpus of the machine for the extra weights and they would be more like three pieces (or so) 70lb each. --------- About selling your existing equipment and purchasing a Lavina-32SPS from us – Thanks for the offer MC, but while your business would be indeed well appreciated it, I don’t think that is going to entirely solve your problems. I recall the time last year when you were getting into polishing and prior to purchasing your HTC (which is a good polishing machine btw) – I’ve got the very strong impression that you had your mind set on purchasing one-does-it-all unit and a system. I don’t think things have changed much since, besides the fact that you no longer have confidence in the HTC ‘system’ and now you’re simply on the look for another 'system'. You have mentioned earlier that you’ve already been using Husqvarna and Granquartz tooling and you still don’t appear to be quite satisfied with the results of your efforts. With all due respect MC, your problem is that you are keep-on looking for a system and there is no such, as floors are all different (although, it is too bad that there are companies out there that would gladly sell you such a 'system'), no matter what you field, regional or sales rep. tells you. (most of the time the chances are that rep. knows less than you and his/her trade knowledge is based on a few hours of walking behind a floor machine on a “class-room” floor and on what he/she has heard here and there about the process and the methods of grinding and polishing) A number of supply companies [selling everything from A to Z including DVD “tutorials” how to grind and polish concrete :)] have adopted a well thought marketing techniques “catering systems” to the entry level market (and I have to admit they do appear quite trustworthy in their glossy catalogues, combined along with some marketing fuzz) convincing you its easy and they got you all covered with a “system” for just about anything so you won’t have to worry and if something doesn’t work don’t bother too much thinking just go to the next system they have in-line for you. And that works to some point (as most people get first into the residential and smaller retail market), but only until you ‘hit the wall’. The problems is that all those folks consider and usually strongly believe that their tools and equipment are the main and only variable on the job, while in fact the only variable out there is The Floor itself. It is plain ignorance.. .But - It Works!

Mile	05-04-2008 10:58:37
Member Posts: 323 Joined: --	Here are a few images of the head of the machine MC (the final proto-type, taken while doing prelimenary testing in a hardware store in Mtl.) -

Mile	05-04-2008 11:01:32
Member Posts: 323 Joined: --	And a few more with 6 and 3 of the heads -

Mile	05-04-2008 11:04:22
Member Posts: 323 Joined: --	And here is one of the actual Lavina-32SPS:

MC	05-04-2008 11:35:16
Member Posts: 723 Joined: 05-20-2007	I actually want to sell my HTC machine because I just wish I bought a different grinder. I like the floating heavy duty skirt the Lavina has rather than the little dust skirt that always gets tore up that the HTC has. I also like the fact the the tooling on the Lavinas reach the outer rim unlike the HTC where its back about an inch and a half or so. I also hate the connectors for the hoses. I know these are little things but you know.. I also like that the Lavina grinder shroud is made out of steel and not plastic like the HTC. I dont want to sell it because of being stuck with the "superfloor" system because I can use anyones tooling if I want I just want a different grinder and i like the Lavina. I also know there is no one does it all machine like I wanted in the beginning. Thats why Id like to get a Lavina and a PrepMaster I dont want to sell it because I think a different grinder will solve all my problems....I just dont like it all that much and from looking at the Lavina 32 at the woc I Really liked it alot. All the little things that my grider doesnt have

Mile	05-04-2008 18:15:07
Member Posts: 323 Joined: --	MC every machine out there (just like anything else) has its pluses and minuses. The self-leveling skirt/splash guard on the Lavina’s is indeed a nice adds-on but what makes a major difference is the design and the engineering behind. HTC’s, Diamatic’s and the like were originally engineered and designed for prep-works. When they came-up with their lines of equipment on the market no one in Sweden or the Netherlands (or in Europe or Australia as a whole for that matter) was doing any concrete polishing (for crying out loud they didn’t start polishing marble and terrazzo floors out there until 5 or 6 years ago). While there is lots of engineering behind HTC’s and Diamatic’s whoever did it was either thinking too high of himself or simply did not have much of a clue or a thorough knowledge of the floor installations out there, otherwise he/she would have realized (and they finally did 10 or so years later and started selling flex-plates and the like) that concrete just like terrazzo is a monolithic floor installation with naturally occurring flows of low and high spots and in order to get a consistent finish throughout the entire surface your machine needs to be capable of following the contour of the surface instead of trying to dig into every high spot it comes across (like an Advance, Terrco/Prepmaster and allied terrazzo equipment). Furthermore they go even beyond - talking about leveling a floor using their equipment.. . No offence but there are ‘Joe Blow’s’ “flat” floors and there are SUPERFLAT floors (and the later ones are by no means done with such portable equipment.. . And, they are indeed - FLAT). Anyway, going back to the Lavina’s – One of the main key-points that makes them better polishing machines than any other equipment out there is the floating motion of the heads of the machine ensuring pretty much a full coverage of the whole contour of the surface and consistent end-results over the entire floor eliminating/minimazing the chances of ending-up with burnished resin-transfer throughout the surface (a typical Superfloor application) due to a total misconception of the process - poor scratch-pattern, lack of proper chemical application and a great misunderstanding of the importance of proper transition from one scratch-pattern (grit) to another. In any case MC, I think you should really stick to what you already have and try to further master your grinding and polishing techniques instead of thinking of purchasing more equipment (unless of course you have an up-coming project requiring additional equipment), as tools and equipment always gonna be out there while the job opportunities may not be present at all time.

Jim Cuviello	05-05-2008 08:49:12
Member Posts: 151 Joined: --	You have to love a guy who tells you to keep what you have and to not buy what he sells.

MC	05-05-2008 12:51:54
Member Posts: 723 Joined: 05-20-2007	Im still going to :) And when I do Im going to have to force Mile to sell me one By the way Mile do you think those HTC flex plates are all that much more better than the morflex couplers that the PrepMasters and Terrco use? I bet they arent any better. I seem to get better results using a foam backer with my resins rather than the flexplates..maybe it also has to do with not using the htc resins..i dont know

gmavridis	05-05-2008 13:49:02
Member Posts: 47 Joined: 04-30-2007	On a slightly different note.....................has anyone had any experiances with the KGS Flexi Pads. They are similar to HTC Twister in that they have diamonds in them. The rep was telling me that you could use the 4 pad system to cream polish concrete and achieve excellant shine & clarity ??? I have used them briefly and they worked for removing floor polishes ( rather than using stripper) but I was not impressed when I tried to polish concrete with them.

Mile	05-05-2008 19:13:50
Member Posts: 323 Joined: --	MC, please don’t take literally what Jim said about [the love and] me :).. .Thanks God James Stephens is not around :) MC, for one the Morflex couplings are definitely more convenient and much more affordable ($40 some to $80 or so) than the adds-on of the HTC. How do the HTC’s flex plates work compared to.?. I have no idea, never had a chance to try them. Although I have seen a hardware store floor done a few weeks or so ago using those plates on a HTC-950 and their hybrid’s.. .And it didn’t look too good (quite uneven and random aggregate exposure here and there, I took some pictures but haven’t had a chance to review them yet); I think Innovatech also uses Moreflex on the machines. Honestly though, I do believe that if you are to use a double ¾” of thick, low to medium density foam/velcro spacers you would get a much better results. And furthermore, what makes the whole thing happen is what gets in contact with the surface first – the diamonds themselves. If they are too stiff & rigid and/or do not have enough surface area, the scratch pattern would be still too random and in order to achieve a flat, consistent results you will need to put the extra effort doing an X-number of additional passes over the uneven area of the floor, which naturally may likely lead to uneven aggregate exposure. George, I think the only KGS floor products available in America are the ones private-labeled for HTC and CPS. Although I can see how such ‘lapping’ process could work for restoration, but if subjected to totally different variables. Otherwise the level of abrasion such pads produce is really minor requiring extensive up-keep maintenance and there is a great chance of ending-up with ‘rippling’ effect on the floor every time you use them

gmavridis	05-06-2008 01:34:13
Member Posts: 47 Joined: 04-30-2007	Mile I've been told you can actually polish concrete with them. http://www.kgsdiamond.com/KGS2006_E/FM_Range_E.html

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