| Smiths Color Floor over solvent based acrylic? |
| 05-04-2008 12:42:00 |
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Smiths Color Floor over solvent based acrylic? Has anyone tried before? I have a cliente who wanted a medium chocolate finish. She would now like to have more marbling after I have sealed. Smiths in their liteatue says you can color previously sealed floors. Has anyone tried smiths color floor over sealer then reseal? And what did finish product look like?
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| 05-04-2008 12:51:48 |
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smiths color floor has enough difficulty adhering to regular concrete let alone acrylic sealer! not a good idea.
you need to use a solvent-based dye or antiqued release powder mixed in solvent acrylic sealer to get more mottling at this point.
smiths is a water-based stain. not appropriate for this application.
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| 05-05-2008 06:06:05 |
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I am quite certain it will not work.. the stain will not bite into the acrylic...
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| 05-05-2008 14:49:14 |
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Don't believe your plan has merit as to resolving this particular issue. Have you considered translucently coloring your sealer with compatible tint then applying it in a manner that provides a slightly mottled effect?
Lindy A.
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| 05-05-2008 17:09:06 |
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usconc and lindy are right on this one. I use xylene with a dash of antique powder to change colors previously sealed slabs. It is a bit half assed, but it makes the customers happy when you are able to solve issues like this. hope you are able to charge extra for going above and beyond(assuming your contracts are clear about stuff like this)
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| 05-05-2008 19:23:29 |
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We have a dilema. I called Smiths and they said it would work just fine, that contractors use it in that manner all the time. They said to wait 24 hrs after application to seal though.
I value all of your opinions highly, boy am I in a pickle...experienced installers say no and the company says yes!!!
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| 05-05-2008 19:57:06 |
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If you are going to use Smith, just be careful not to go to thick with your coverage. If you are going to reseal everything with a solvent, chances are that it will punch through everything again. Be careful, the more shit (smith color) you to suspend in the sealer, the higher the likelyhood of poor bonding. Good luck
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| 05-05-2008 20:09:18 |
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Thanks consci!! I am going to go very light with the app, going to cut to 8:1 instead of 4:1 and go very lightly over surface to achieve the look. I am sealing with a xylene based solvent sealer that should easily punch through the smiths down to oiginal coats of sealer....Thanks again all!!! I will update with how it worked out and will take some pics.....
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| 05-06-2008 05:27:08 |
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not a big fan of smiths.its odd i never heard a salesman say something would work when most contractors say it wont.will the salesman cover the replacement costs when the color separates?i would do the sealer tinting myself.
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| 05-06-2008 09:36:30 |
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come on goodson. aren't you smarter than that?
sure, smith will tell you it will work - they want to sell product. but their stuff comes up all the time on regular concrete. and you want to use it on top of a sealer? why?
there are plenty of other good products out there, more appropriate for this type of application. solvent-dyes are dime a dozen and everybody has antiqued release in a variety of colors.
i caution you to use a little forethought with this application. do you want a call back in several months because the sealer is delaminating and taking color with it? because then i guarantee you, you will probably end up having to grind everything up and start from scratch.
unless they have epoxy in their color floor product, which they don't, no water-based stain is going to stick to an existing sealer. any competent coatings rep, or even a house painter for that matter, could tell you that.
and putting a solvent sealer over the top of all of it is not going to help.
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| 05-06-2008 12:35:52 |
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If a key person at Smith Paints stated that their product will work in this manner (which in reviewing their website it does state this to be the case), they must have tests/evaluations that support this statement or they would not be making it in writing on their website. Maybe it is based on waiting 24 hours to seal, as well as their taking into account other information and plan of action you presented them with ...I really don't know; but, far be it from me to question the statement of any manufacturer as to their products actual performance characteristics. It's up to you to evaluate the information, then proceed accordingly.
Lindy A.
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| 05-06-2008 13:20:19 |
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There was a demo I went to while back with Smith Stains. The applicator accidentally missed the floor and the stream hit a metal tool box near by. We wiped up what we saw and moved on. The next day, the guy who owned the metal, painted toolbox was pissed. There was stain on one side and that crap wouldnt come off . If it can stick to a painted metal toolbox, it may stick to an acrylic sealer. Just my 2 centavos.
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| 05-06-2008 13:37:19 |
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doesnt water bead up on acrylic like water on a waxed car?if so how is a water based product not bead up there also?
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| 05-06-2008 13:55:41 |
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Never tried it but apparently you can mix antiqued release powder in solvent acrylic sealer. Please tell me how this is done ... amount per gallon of sealer, etc.
Will doing this allow me to create more of a mottling effect and can I use a lighter (say blue release agent) over a previously acid stained (not yet sealed) outside slab (dark brown) without having to worry about green or blue acid turning black on exterior surfaces?
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| 05-06-2008 15:29:07 |
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i usually toss in 3 or 4 handfulls of release to a 5 gallon pail it isnt an exact science.it is said blue and green stain will turn black outside from moisture but,i have had some people tell me they havnt had it turn on them.so try it if you like but i havent yet.
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| 05-06-2008 16:51:26 |
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Water based stain over a solvent based sealer will just "lay" on the surface. Yes it will dry and you can apply another coat of solvent based sealer on top. What you have created is a sandwich of a non adhering colorant with a solvent sealer as the bread. Now if it doesn't delaminate the top coat of sealer, it will disappear as the top coat wears off.
Mixing a release agent with a sealer is like mixing oil and water. Yes, I have done it but at about 2 oz. to 2 gal. of sealer cut to about 15% solids. Then a top coat of of 30% solids clear mix of sealer.
I now use liquid integral color as my coloring agent for sealer as well as release. I REALLY don't like coloring sealer as that is a last ditch effort to collect a check. It is a temporary fix to a problem child.
The molecular structure of water based verses solvent based colorants and their carriers are like night and day. The molecules are much larger with water. They will not penetrate nearly as well (if at all) as a solvent based particle. You have a much better chance of a solvent based dye to "grab on" to the smaller rough areas of a solvent based sealer than the "LARGE" molecules of water. That's the short version. gene
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| 05-06-2008 19:08:51 |
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Thanks again everybody for all the input, it is greatly appreciated.
Do we not wax solvent based sealers with water based acrylic waxes? It bonds very tenaciously to solvent based acrylic sealers. I have never had a water based acrylic wax delaminate from the solvent based sealer. Elitecretes ultra stone is nothing more than an acrylic water based sealer that you add color to. I have used water based acrylic sealer and tinted with color and sprayed down and have got the same affect as ultrastone. Ultrastone does not delaminate solvent based sealers that are put on top, and you are in essense putting a solvent based product over a water based acrylic.
Not trying to prove anyone wrong, just trying to bring up other examples.
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| 05-06-2008 20:06:56 |
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Smiths is freaking crap. Of course they'll tell you you can put it down on solvent. Then, when you go to roll a little more solvent over it to make your "sandwich" (as the previous poster pointed out,) enjoy watching it come up on your roller.
I would maybe, MAYBE use it on an overlay, if I were 50 miles from the nearest drug store that didn't sell makeup powder.
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| 05-06-2008 20:49:50 |
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the technologies are completely different.
waxes and floor finishes are made to bond to coatings. and they have no pigment in them.
water-based stains are made to fill the pores of concrete with a 150 grit profile - not bond to smooth coatings. and they have pigment in them. pigment has no bond capabilities whatsoever.
furthermore, waxes and floor finishes may not delaminate, but they come off extremely easily. abrasion and impact erode them readily. and if you use any type of mild chemical on them, or non-ph-neutral detergent or liquid, they're toast.
with all the better types of products out there for this application, you have to be desperate to use smiths. because it just doesn't make sense. it may work. but chances are it won't.
bottom line is, do you want something that has a proven track record? or are you intent on blazing a new frontier? blazing a new frontier may be great if you're in r&d and product development. but not when you make a living out of basically doing the same applications over and over again.
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| 05-07-2008 10:04:27 |
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You should only use smiths on top of a sealer if it is your last resort. It can be done but you will have to use an airless to apply it. It will take more that one coat to even itself out.
Not a preferred method but is can and has worked for us. Those that don't apply a sealer on top of it via an airless are in for some fun... but those that don't use an airless to apply sealer in any normal situation are in for fun under any normal situation (roller lines, time consuming etc.)
here is a photo of a floor done with smith (the floor was once coated with pink epoxy...we had to shot blast it up. Applied smith color floor and in one area for a weird reason (long story) had to apply a section of this over a sealed area.)
It has been down with heavy traffic with no "bonding issues" Oh and it was sealed with an airless.
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| 05-07-2008 14:04:54 |
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Wow ... that floor looks fantastic ... great work.
That must have been a real job laying out and staining all those circles ... I would have gotten so dizzy playing ring around the rosy I would have fallen down. Goes to show where there is a will there is a way, so long as you know the proper techniques to assure success.. Thank's for sharing your own personal experience.
Lindy A.
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| 05-07-2008 14:47:56 |
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They were ok with the shot blast track marks? Never thought anybody would want that to show.
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| 05-07-2008 15:37:34 |
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looks like his showroom. has the company name in the middle of the floor. don't think a customer would go for that!
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| 05-07-2008 18:45:06 |
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the floor was blast tracked east to west, you are looking north to south. Not blast patterns, the floor only had one coat of sealer when the pic was taken..just the only picture of the floor on this computer,, there is a better picture of the floor in the December edition of LUXE magazine (dallas area). Evidently they went for it?
notice you don't see any streaks through the center logo area (that was sealed to completion)
thats why it is not good to diagnose a floor from a picture...both of you are wrong.
we have another 4000sft of showroom where the concrete is new and we use this room to show how a beat up floor (without and overlay) can turn out.
we hve used smith color floor for a number of years without one issue.
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| 05-07-2008 19:38:55 |
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Thanks gotcurb, awesome floor! I talked with smiths again and I am going to try the application.
One question for dcs, according to your theory your own products should not stick......CSS over ultra stone would just lay there, a colored water based acrylic flooded to the surface then a solvent based sealer applied over.
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| 05-07-2008 19:41:07 |
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wow. what an attitude.
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| 05-07-2008 20:18:06 |
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What's with "WOW, What an attitude". I asked dcs a legitimate question. One of the coloring systems dcs sells is a colored water based acrylic with solvent based sealer put over top.
I am not here to lob insults at anyone nor have I. I have only ever thanked you for your advice. I do not want this forum to turn into the political bs as on the concrete locator forum.
I apologize if I offended you in any way.........
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| 05-07-2008 21:44:04 |
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remind us who has the attitude?
seriously though, no attack towards you...just dodging some towards my floor
I am wondering if anyone that says this will not work has actually tried it? Am I the only one that has and has posted a picture of it?
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| 05-07-2008 21:48:49 |
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c'mon sun same old Elitecrete concrete locator forum mentality from you. I never said one thing to you and here you are attacking me saying I'm a problem.......then usconc jumps in after reading your post and even after apologizing even though I did nothing against him starts to beat me up also....thanks usconc, I still do not understand what brings you to beat me up.....
If you guys would reread the post I asked if anyone had done this before and what type of results they achieved because smiths literature stated you could do this. I had not talked to smiths when I posted this. And thanks again gotcurb for the info!!!!
Please explain to me sun how your css a solvent based acrylic stays adheared to ultrastone a water based colored water based acrylic? How can sun and dcs say it's a recipe for disaster when they apply a solvent based sealer over a water based all the time and it adhears just fine? And also it has been recommended to use wcs a water based acrylic sealer then coat it with css a solvent based acrylic sealer if you do not want to darken your finish anymore than it already is. How does your css bond to the wcs then? Remember you guys are the ones stating water based and solvent based do not mix, and I will say it again, you do it all the time. According to dcs post when the sealer finish wears through so goes your color. That would hold true with any finish even ultrastone.
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