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Proposed Options & More Info on Peeling Floors
trubee	05-09-2008 06:33:45
Member Posts: 24 Joined: 01-22-2007	Hey guys - our GC sent us this today. Does the info tell you why our acid stained concrete floors peeled in the first place and do you have an opinion on the proposed solutions? What else do I need to know? Thanks so much. PRODUCTS USED (from our sub) Jasco gloss wetlook concrete cure & seal concrete sealer, they do not have a web site but you can google for information. On top of the Jasco sealer I used Polyurethane 5400 manufactured by Versatile Products www.deckcoatings.com it is their water based polyurethane. PROPOSED SOLUTIONS We should be able to scrape the coating off and grind the top layer so that we can re-stain the floor. we now have the equipment to do this, I would use the HTC machine www.htc-sweden.com for the coatings removal. we could then re-stain the floor. The look would be different than the original but we would still be very pretty and acceptable. The sealer i would use would be a 30% acrylic penetrating sealer. We have great success with these sealers as they penetrate the concrete and do not peel. Another option that is newer but is something we are doing now much more than the traditional stain and seal concrete is called the retro- plate system. www.retroplatesystem.com. This is far superior as there are no sealers involved. this would reduce maintenance and. We mechanically polish the concrete using diamond disc, each pass with the machine getting finer and finer, we then chemically treat the concrete to densify it making it stain resistant. then we do a final polish with a 3500 grit diamond. What do you think?

Lindy A.	05-09-2008 08:38:50
Member Posts: 1789 Joined: --	Why would you apply urethane sealer over a cure and seal? Urethanes must have the proper surface profile (comparable to 80 grit) to achieve penetrating/mechanical and strong adhesive bond ...the cure and seal you applied first would have impeded this, acting as a barrier and hindering bond of the urethane. Furthermore, it is never a good plan of action to apply the sealer of one company/manufacturer over that of another since compatability issues are ALWAYS a MAJOR CONCERN, especially when the sealers are entirely different types (cure and seal versus a urethane) ... if for some reason the plan is to do so, YOU must perform adhesion and compatibility tests first, for CYA reasons, since you will get NO support from either company when you do so. The solvent contained in the urethane could also have come into play, adding to your current peeling problem. Aliphatic moisture cured urethanes (MCU's) can typically be applied over 100% solids industrial flooring epoxies. There are also primers that are specifically formulated by the MCU manufacturer for use over properly profiled/foreign matter free concrete. Either of these would have been acceptible and successful, as I have been doing for over 25 years in order to provide tuff/durable shield on commercial/industrial floors (primarily being large distribution centers, auto floor showrooms, production/facility floors, etc. ... but, I would never do so over any cure and seal. Lindy A.

kongcrete	05-09-2008 10:38:53
Member Posts: 26 Joined: 05-07-2008	His proposed option on how he is going to fix it is the right way. As far as the polishing option, it is a better choice but I wouldnt let him go the polishing route because your job will obviously be the first polish job as he said he just bought an htc machine to do this kind of work. He also says he uses the retroplate system which is fine but I can pretty much bet that he isnt "certified" by them to be able to buy their densifier (which is all the retroplate system is anyway, everything else is just regular diamond polishing) but this doesnt really matter because no matter whos "system" you use its still polished concrete whether its retroplate, htc, vic, prosoco, scofeild, granquartz...etc Polishing concrete isnt hard to do once you figure out what type of diamonds are going to work on the floor, how to correctly run the machine, knowing how to refine each previously used grit, knowing how and when to apply the densifier, learning how to blend in edges(you will have a ton of edges to do being inside a residence and if not done right will look like crap). Also grinding and polishing will take about 10 times as long as just to grind off exisisting stain and then re-stain and seal. If I was him I would take that newly accuired HTC machine and grind everything off, overlay, stain and seal. I think he will be opening a whole nother can of worms on himself if he tries to grind and polish.

usconc	05-09-2008 10:39:27
Member Posts: 823 Joined: --	this wasn't a mcu urethane. the contractor said it was a water-based urethane. so there was little if any solvent. also, the WHOLE sealer system was peeling, not just the urethane. so it was not the combination of sealers at fault in this instance. back in the original thread, i thought it was just bad sealer. while it turns out not to be kemiko, i still think that was the problem. JASCO. who uses that? and they don't even have a web site. that tells you all you need to know. furthermore, the jasco product is a water-based acrylic. i would never use anybody's water-based acrylic in a home, let alone one from jasco. they have poor adhesion and poor durability. water-based acrylics are know for coming up like this. but good for your contractor. he's stepping up to the plate. either option should work out fine if done right. the only thing is after the grinding you will see a little aggregate in the concrete. that should be okay. just tell him you don't want any swirl marks. as far as which system, the one with the sealer will have depth, luster, and gloss. the retroplate polished one will have no depth, luster or gloss. it can turn out dull and flat like a warehouse or home depot floor (but with color) or it can turn out shiny, if he continues to polish with high grit (3200) diamonds. i would go for the first option with the sealer. when he says he will use a "penetrating" sealer, i assume he means it is solvent-based, has an odor. remember we asked you that, but you said you weren't there at the time. that's what he should have used in the first place. he apparently didn't want to deal with the odor because he used all water-based products. he then put the urethane on top of the acrylic, which basically says he knew the acrylic wouldn't have enough durability. if it were me, i would ask for at least 3 coats of the "penetrating" sealer and then 3 coats of wax. that should be fine since you apparently don't use this home all the time. what i sometimes do also, is to put down 2 coats of the solvent acrylic ("penetrating") and then 1 coat of an mcu urethane as the finish coat for durability. this would give you added durability and is the same type of system he was using in the first place - acrylic first for adhesion, then urethane for durability. you could tell him that's what you would ideally like, for all your trouble. it should only cost him an extra $.10-.20 a square foot to do that, so i would think it would not be a problem given all the trouble and expense he's already going to.

Lindy A.	05-09-2008 10:44:51
Member Posts: 1789 Joined: --	Kongcrete's plan of action as to correction of the problem is great advise. Your peeling surface is DOA ... you need to starting over with a virgin clean/foreign matter free new concrete substate. As to which route to take there, you do have options, so consider them carefully then proceed accordingly. Lindy A.

trubee	05-10-2008 05:49:55
Member Posts: 24 Joined: 01-22-2007	Thanks, everyone. This is very helpful. We have been advised to hire an independent advisor to liaise with our GC and sub to review (and set parameters) on exactly what the plan and execution of the fix will be, as we are "just the homeowners" here and not the pros you are who can evaluate the exact products/combinations that the sub intends to use. While we are grateful the sub seems willing to step up to the plate and fix this problem, we don't ever want to go through this again! Do you think that hiring an advisor to speak to them on our behalf is a good approach and if so, any suggestions for me?

usconc	05-10-2008 06:15:31
Member Posts: 823 Joined: --

trubee	05-11-2008 09:14:52
Member Posts: 24 Joined: 01-22-2007	Thanks so much. We will definitely contact him. The reason we want an advisor is just to be as sure as anyone could reasonably be that these guys aren't cutting corners in the fix. Once burned, twice shy and all that. The advice came from a local attorney who crafted a letter than FINALLY got us the info on what was used on the floors and spurred on the remedy. As I have said before, the last thing we wanted to do was to sue any of these guys if they were willing to own up and fix the issues. Thankfully, it looks like they are willing to do that -- now we just want a pro to be looking over the plan on our behalf since we don't know the ins and outs --which is about as protected as we can be. Hopefully my next post will be that this is resolved happily!

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