| trying to stay competitive |
| 05-09-2008 18:27:11 |
Member
Posts: 20
Joined: 05-07-2008
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Ive been polishing concrete for a while now and now it seems that everyone is doing it.
I have been bidding against alot of different guys lately and it wasnt too long ago at all that I had virtually no competition (like within just the last year).
Now I know what it costs to do and all the variables that can come up and I know what i want to make on each job, but I have to ask you guys what are all of you charging out there? Because I have been losing jobs because my price comes in at sometimes double than most of these new guys on the block.
For instance I just bid a 14,000 sq ft project that is new concrete that needs to be ground, dyed, polished and sealed with a guard type sealer. My bid came in at just over 79K. The owner said I was highly reccomended but got a bid for the same thing for $44,000 and wants to know if I can price match!! What the hell is up with these prices?
I just want to know how these guys are making any money on these jobs when I know what it costs to do them right. (unless you use some magic tooling that works on every single job)
Im guessing that they just dont know what is really going on. The company that is bidding against me is a commercial concrete contractor and I guess they just recently bought equipment for polishing..so maybe they are just trying to get some jobs in but hell those prices are rediculous in my eyes.
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| 05-09-2008 18:44:04 |
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Posts: 50
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I would take the job at 3.15 per sq ft for 14k SF.
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| 05-09-2008 19:49:49 |
Member
Posts: 151
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On jobs over 10,000 square feet I would take it at $3.50 but I should not have to. We should be getting minimum $4.00 for polish and on average $5.00. For staining minimum $.75 per square foot and on average $1.25. The fact of the matter is you can not get a decent epoxy for less than $5.50 and what we provide is a better solution than epoxy.
The problem is there are a lot of ignorant people in this business who are hurting the industry and contractors who put out a quality finish.
In the end the customer gets what they pay for. The problem is they never know how much better their floor could have looked.
It becomes an endless and most of the time loosing educational process.
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| 05-09-2008 20:17:23 |
Member
Posts: 20
Joined: 05-07-2008
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Jim I totally agree. We do acid staining/sealing for $3.00 per sq ft. Takes 1/4 the time and no money at all to do but yet concrete polishing goes for the same or less, takes alot longer, costs a hell of a lot more and is a MUCH better surface. Strange.
Like you said epoxy goes for $4-$6 per sq ft and doesnt take nearly as much time and is far inferior to polished concrete for durability and longevity
Norcal I agree you can make some money at that price but why not charge more for a superior product? Also I wouldnt do it at $3.15 with a dye and guard application
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| 05-10-2008 08:51:20 |
Member
Posts: 162
Joined: 09-17-2007
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Here is the thing I dont understand because I have heard this price point brought up all the time and we all agree a customer gets what he pays for. I have been staying busy doing polished concrete and every big job Ive done I had to demo against other companys, does this not happen with you guys? Maybe it is just me but for customers I have worked with that are willing to invest a nice sum of $ do research. Anybody can look up polished concrete to see whats what.
Granted there are some companys that are trying to get some work under the belt so they may do it at cost, but the demos will prove the final product, hence what a customer is going to initially get and pay for.
But lets all face the facts, sometimes customers only have X amount in there budget for the project and it may not add up to what your asking. Thats just buisness, I deal with that all the time in natural stone, concrete and carpet. If you can find out what they have in there budget maybe you can give other options to stay in the game. Its all in the buisness
"The problem is there are a lot of ignorant people in this business who are hurting the industry and contractors who put out a quality finish."
I agree and disagree Jim, a customer is always going to dictate the industry not the contractor. Its a customers responsibility to know what he or she is going to get. If they are hiring guys that put out a poor product at a cheap price whos at fault? They could have had demos done to see what each guy can do etc..
This is really nothing new to the flooring industry, if a customer wants to be educated they will make a demand or set up guidelines before a bid process. If a contractor tries to make those guidelines and the customer has no demands for them, then what does it matter. What we are asking resides in the customers hands and not ours.
You can have the same budget for a car and always find a better deal somewhere. Its up to the customer, all a contractor can do is promote his or her product.
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| 05-10-2008 11:05:50 |
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Posts: 151
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QUOTE ims polished concrete, 2008-05-10 08:51:20 1. I have been staying busy doing polished concrete and every big job Ive done I had to demo against other companys, does this not happen with you guys? Maybe it is just me but for customers I have worked with that are willing to invest a nice sum of $ do research. Anybody can look up polished concrete to see whats what.
2. Granted there are some companys that are trying to get some work under the belt so they may do it at cost, but the demos will prove the final product, hence what a customer is going to initially get and pay for.
"The problem is there are a lot of ignorant people in this business who are hurting the industry and contractors who put out a quality finish."
3. I agree and disagree Jim, a customer is always going to dictate the industry not the contractor. Its a customers responsibility to know what he or she is going to get. If they are hiring guys that put out a poor product at a cheap price whos at fault? They could have had demos done to see what each guy can do etc..
4. This is really nothing new to the flooring industry, if a customer wants to be educated they will make a demand or set up guidelines before a bid process. If a contractor tries to make those guidelines and the customer has no demands for them, then what does it matter. What we are asking resides in the customers hands and not ours.
1. Obviously there are several market segments within an industry. We bid a lot of work off building plans where at the time of bidding the site has yet to be built. Research? Show me on the internet where it talks about the difference between a good job and a fantastic job and what needs to be done to achive a fantastic job. I am asking so that I can refer my potential customers to those sites. I am not saying thay are not out there. I just want to know where they are.
2. As much as I hate demos maybe I need to consider it.
3. Times are tight and have been for a while. People are basing decision more on price than ever before. The customer may dictate the want for the product but the contractors will dictate what they charge.
4. In time this will haooen and is now starting to happen. The industry is to new and customer think we buff the floor to a shine. They are not educated to know different.
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| 05-10-2008 11:31:56 |
Member
Posts: 162
Joined: 09-17-2007
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1. Obviously there are several market segments within an industry. We bid a lot of work off building plans where at the time of bidding the site has yet to be built. Research? Show me on the internet where it talks about the difference between a good job and a fantastic job and what needs to be done to achive a fantastic job. I am asking so that I can refer my potential customers to those sites. I am not saying thay are not out there. I just want to know where they are.
A: "The industry is to new and customer think we buff the floor to a shine. They are not educated to know different."
Thats my point Jim, I have been in natural stone for sometime
now and potential customers still think the floor is buffed. I think this will remain, the best advice I can give is to perform a demo- its common, you can show your product and educate a customer on it. As far as research a customer can look up polished concrete and find the process used such as grinding,honing and polish. Look up guys who do it in the area and view there work, then request a bid and demo process.
2. As much as I hate demos maybe I need to consider it.
A:Jim, 90% of the jobs we get come from demos, this is requested by the customer most of the time if not I will request doing a small demo, have never had any customer tell me no yet.
Its the ultimate display of your product - if your confident in the product you deliver demos are good, the showdown is what its about, all the talk goes out the door. Lowballers usually hate demos against other quality products just think about that. Demos are great for the contractor not only will it show your work you may get a hint of what really needs to be done so you can bid it as close as possible or find its a job you may not want.
3. Times are tight and have been for a while. The customer may dictate the want for the product but the contractors will dictate what they charge.
A: Well I agree, thats a loaded statment. Your right but then how do you stay in buis? There are ways around some of this like what I have stated above.
4. In time this will haooen and is now starting to happen. The industry is to new and customer think we buff the floor to a shine. They are not educated to know different.
A: I responded to this on 1
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| 05-10-2008 13:55:21 |
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: 02-21-2008
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Take your customers to 5 or 10 of your jobs and let them see how they look after a couple of years. Then tell them to look at other contractors' projects. See how fast they sign on the dotted line. Demo's help when you want approval for a large project. We like to do them on a mock-up or waste slab. Let them walk and drive on them for 3 months and see how they hold up. Then walk over with the architect and wipe down the mock-up. They love it when it's as good as new after being trashed for so long. Always good to demo on the exact concrete you will be using so there are no suprises.
The cost of dye is $90/gal. With coverage rates of 100 to 150 square feet per gallon (well above the factory recommended 400 to 500sf/gal) the cost of the dye alone is $.75 to $.90. Let the GC know you will be happy to redo the job when he calls you when the other sub fails to properly install and they are running into liquidated damages. It's funny when they call and are desperate but still want you to lower your price. I always say let me have a few days to think about it. I sound like an ass. I usually help if I can but it does make me angry.
I had one job where I bid 5-6 bucks for a tricky tennis clubhouse. The PM begged me to drive an hour to make the bid. I balked as much as I could for a good customer because I knew that my price would be to high but relented in the end. I showed the super all of the problems . . . finished maple base, glass everywhere, holes, trenches, granite reception desk, and stainless steel hanging doors. I told the super I would probably not get the job and ran through what to expect of the sub who did. I then told him that if the sub was terrible to call me and gave him my card. I gave the PM my bid and didn't hear back. I called him a week later and told me my bid was to high. Shocking. About three weeks later the super called me and begged me to come out. The floor didn't take the stain and the sub was in the process of applying an acrylic sealer. We redid the job but the funny part was they charged him $4/sf to clean, stain and slap on a sealer. I told him that was worth like $1/sf with the coverage rate they were using. I had spent a whole day explaining what they needed and they just couldnt get it. Dubbs stain costs $6. XYZ costs $4. Let's go with XYZ! Frustrating. It's like comparing linoleum and granite expecting the linoleum to look the same. The owner liked it so much that he waived the 10 days of liquidated damages. (around $20,000) The best part is that I still had to hound them to get paid. Gotta love this business.
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| 05-10-2008 14:04:58 |
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: 02-21-2008
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As if that last post wasn't long enough here's the bonus. I know for a fact that some competitors of mine are doing jobs at cost or less. Lots of jobs!!! I have talked to them face to face and their answer is that they don't want to lose the account. (read multiple jobs, same owner.) My price is $2.50/sf. Theirs is $1.50. It doesn't make sense to me but I have other work. The rest are left slitting each other's throats. Maybe it's the economy or the fear of losing jobs to someone else. Maybe it's a way to keep their guys busy and run some money through the accounts. It hurts us all in the end. These are big companies working for bigger companies. They will eventuall set a standard that will be hard for us to break free of.
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| 05-10-2008 20:58:00 |
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Posts: 20
Joined: 05-07-2008
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Ya thats another thing..dye is too expensive and does not cover no 400 sq ft per gallon. I pay about $75 or so per gallon..Dubbs whos dye do you use?
You ever just use and acid stain instead?
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| 06-09-2008 18:04:06 |
Member
Posts: 3
Joined: 06-09-2008
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let them have the job and raise your price when you have to go in and fix it. lot of companys think they know how to do it it takes time and every job is differnt
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